Hairspring knot from returning the balance

[Louis09]

Hello everyone,

I bought an omega with an 711 movement and managed to find the problem : the hairspring was twisted.

So I bought another balance and while trying to fit it in the movement I pushed a bit too hard on the tweezers and it made a 180 Flip (upside down).

This tiny little accident made a “knot” in the hairspring, does anyone know if there is a way to fix it ? 

Thank you very much and sorry for my frenglish

Louis

[JohnR725]

Nice way to take a picture but I would try not to hang a balance wheel like that because in the case of an Omega watch the hairsprings are usually soft and they don't like to be stretched.

On 11/5/2023 at 11:46 PM, Louis09 said:

I bought an omega with an 711 movement and managed to find the problem : the hairspring was twisted.

Hairsprings don't do that themselves typically in the watch so somebody must've been playing with the watch before you?

On 11/5/2023 at 11:46 PM, Louis09 said:

This tiny little accident made a “knot” in the hairspring, does anyone know if there is a way to fix it ? 

The problems is we would almost need to see the thing in front of us to get a proper view and It requires somebody with hairspring manipulation skills. So there is the possibility that the skilled person may be able to fix this perhaps.

 

[Waggy]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:46 AM, Louis09 said:

This tiny little accident made a “knot” in the hairspring, does anyone know if there is a way to fix it ? 

I have tried several ways and the only way that seems to work is to remove the spring from the balance and staff so it looks something like this (you can leave on the stud):

Then using an old oiler and starting from the inside from a position where the spring is good, place the oiler between the coils and then slowly work your way around the coils from the inside out until you work out the problem. This is MUCH easier said than done, and of course you have to replace the spring back on the staff and balance once you are done. I have tried several 'shortcuts' that always ended in disaster, so this is the only way that has any chance of success. Maybe there are some hairspring 'black-belts' out there who know a better way, but this is the only way that I have tried that works - albeit a huge pain in the ... to do.

[HectorLooi]

I remember Alex Hamilton had a video on disentangling this kind of hairsprings but I can't seem to find it.

Anyone can recall which video it was in?

[Nucejoe]

If I correctly understand the terminology, by " knot" you mean

Hairspring is not " kinked " or " bent " or " twisted" 

rather there is a " knot" .   

ie; only one circle of the coil  has tangled, actually its done the 360 degrees then  passed under itself. 

In which case detaching the stud from the spring is practically a must.

Best to seperate the coil from the balance staff.

Lay the coil on top of a white sheet of paper laid on flat star foam.

Needle pin the collet through its hole onto the starfoam.

Starting from the collet, run a needle through the circles of the coil, driving the knot to the pinning point until the coil is  disentangled.

Easier shown than explained.

I have had 100% success with this approach.

Rgds

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:46 AM, Louis09 said:

Hello everyone,

I bought an omega with an 711 movement and managed to find the problem : the hairspring was twisted.

So I bought another balance and while trying to fit it in the movement I pushed a bit too hard on the tweezers and it made a 180 Flip (upside down).

This tiny little accident made a “knot” in the hairspring, does anyone know if there is a way to fix it ? 

Thank you very much and sorry for my frenglish

Louis

Is it a knot ? Or is it not a knot ? Ive had coils jump inside each other, you can  work it up to one end, the cock stud end with a fine needle. Fried was a bloody master of hairspring untanglement. If i can find the video, i once counted the number of times he said tangled and untangle, it was a lot, yes I'm a very sad and strange individual .  Hairspring 101 i think it was, let me find it and come back. No it wasn't 101 I'm talking out my arse, but this is Henry the hairspring wizard performing his mystical art .

https://youtu.be/egCwtMMoOCU?si=4LDRlpfqWVXKUHET

Edited November 7, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Louis09]

Thank you very much for all the responses, so I will try putting the hairspring out and going through the coils with an oiler. Wish me luck

[Neverenoughwatches]

51 minutes ago, Louis09 said:

Thank you very much for all the responses, so I will try putting the hairspring out and going through the coils with an oiler. Wish me luck

Yah you can do it, a calm and collected dude like you.  Get some grub and be comfortable and happy with your seating position. You may not have to detach the hairspring from the cock. If you watched Fried's video you might be able to unwind it. It didn't get tangled and then fixed to the cock like that. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Louis09 said:

Thank you very much for all the responses, so I will try putting the hairspring out and going through the coils with an oiler. Wish me luck

 Can we see a  top view close up of the coil, it might not be detached from the balance.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:50 AM, Waggy said:

this is the only way that has any chance of success

I heartily agree.  I did one a couple of months ago.  It had two "tangles" that had to be fixed. I did the work under a microscope.

[HectorLooi]

https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/224377149905?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=3423-175132-2357-0&ssspo=MPr5TDAPRyu&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=v36TsHWBSw-&var=523164307352&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

You might want to keep this eBay link handy.

I suggest that you practice on a scrap balance wheel first. Hairspring manipulation is advanced stuff and requires calm nerves and steady hands.

An oiler might not be the best tool for the job. I use a sharp dental probe (because I'm a retired dentist). My mentor uses a bent sewing needle, jammed into the end of a pegwood. 

I find that using a curved tweezer in the left hand and a probe in the right hand works best for me. Place the hairspring on a flat piece of glass, with a white piece of paper under the glass for contrast. When you pinch the hairspring with the tweezers, allow the tweezer tips to go all the way until it rests on the glass before closing the tips of the tweezers. This stabilizes your hands and give better control. Likewise, the probe should also rest on the glass for stability.

The secret to curving the hairspring is pinching the hairspring at the correct spot and gently stroking the part you want to bend with the probe. Experience will tell you how much to flex the spring to form it to the shape you want.

If you do it enought times, reforming a hairspring is normal as oiling a shock jewel. 

And as John says... practice, practice, practice. Good luck.

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Can we see a  top view close up of the coil, it might not be detached from the balance.

 

 It might not  need to be detached from the balance, plus on some modern replacement balance complete the coil is laser welded to the staff so should not be detached. 

 

[Louis09]

I am sorry to deceive you all but the first hairspring for training broke off the center piece where it was welded on .

Last try with the one I bought, the hairspring is veryy soft so every little movement deforms it (I tried doing it like in the video to turn the tangle up but I think it is too sensitive), here is a photo of the current point of view, what would you exactly do now ?

thank you  

[Nucejoe]

Passing the stud through this coil is risky, you must unpin the hairspring.

1-Put the stud back in the hole in stud holder arm ( adjustor arm ) tighten the screw .

2- Unpin the spring.

To gain access to both sides of the coil,

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, Louis09 said:

 

 

29 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Passing the stud through this coil is risky, you must unpin the hairspring.

1-Put the stud back in the hole in stud holder arm ( adjustor arm ) tighten the screw .

2- Unpin the spring.

To gain access to both sides of the coil,

 

 

 

 

Oh my word Joe what you thinking  'unpin the hairspring are you mad ?  Quite possibly but maybe right as well. There comes a day in watch repair when you need to be brave and bold and say to yourself I'm going to unpin that sucker straighten it out and re-pin it. And that day Louis has come for you my friend, good luck bold one we shall see you on the other side.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I suggest that you practice on a scrap balance wheel first

What a novel idea that is practicing before working on a live watch. Especially omega balance wheel watch where the balance wheels promptly expensive.

32 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Oh my word Joe what you thinking  'unpin the hairspring are you mad ?  Quite possibly but maybe right as well. There comes a day in watch repair when you need to be brave and bold and say to yourself I'm going to unpin that sucker straighten it out and re-pin it.

Minor problem with this is what if?

1 hour ago, Louis09 said:

welded on

The unfortunate problem of watch repair is simplification of steps of manufacturing like getting rid of hairspring pins. This is why welding and glue is quite popular for manufacturing. In other words hairspring pins tend to be a thing of the past.

1 hour ago, Louis09 said:

Last try with the one I bought, the hairspring is veryy soft so every little movement deforms it (I tried doing it like in the video to turn the tangle up but I think it is too sensitive), here is a photo of the current point of view, what would you exactly do now ?

 

1 hour ago, Louis09 said:

(I tried doing it like in the video to turn the tangle up but I think it is too sensitive),

There are lots of problems with the video. It's more of a? First off he's using bigger balance wheels easy to film. Second he's extremely good he's been practicing his entire life, Versus how long have you been practicing? He can probably do this in his sleep. It takes a lot of time to learn how to manipulate hairsprings. You can't just watch a video and think you can do that particular step to fix your problem not without all the practice lots of And lots of practicing.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Oh my word Joe what you thinking  'unpin the hairspring are you mad ?  Quite possibly but maybe right as well. There comes a day in watch repair when you need to be brave and bold and say to yourself I'm going to unpin that sucker straighten it out and re-pin it. And that day Louis has come for you my friend, good luck bold one we shall see you on the other side.

  To repin, put a bit of grease on flat side of the free end of your screwdriver, with tweezers pick up and stick the pin into grease , grease will hold the pin prependicular to the drivers falt side.

Instal balance and cock on mainplate.

Thread the spring through stud hole.

Aim the pin for stud hole, once you get the sharp end of the pin in the hole, a pair of tweezers will drive the pin home.

Rinse and ur  DONE.

 Hector and few others tried this approach with success and liked it.

To unpin use  long nose pliers . grab the pin , pull out.

https://www.amazon.in/Durable-Organizer-Jewelry-Handicraft-Hand-Made/dp/B0CBPMDKWY

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

  To repin, put a bit of grease on flat side of the free end of your screwdriver, with tweezers pick up and stick the pin into grease , grease will hold the pin prependicular to the drivers falt side.

Instal balance and cock on mainplate.

Thread the spring through stud hole.

Aim the pin for stud hole, once you get the sharp end of the pin in the hole, a pair of tweezers will drive the pin home.

Rinse and ur  DONE.

 Hector and few others tried this approach with success and liked it.

To unpin use  long nose pliers . grab the pin , pull out.

https://www.amazon.in/Durable-Organizer-Jewelry-Handicraft-Hand-Made/dp/B0CBPMDKWY

I discovered standing my movement holder on its edge so i could insert the pin from the top works really well for me. 

[Nucejoe]

 An advantage of your aproach is that adjustor arm  can no farther  move as pin is inserted, disadvantage of it is you might touch/bend the spring while trying to insert the pin in the hole.

Rgds

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 An advantage of your aproach is that adjustor arm  can no farther  move as pin is inserted, disadvantage of it is you might touch/bend the spring while trying to insert the pin in the hole.

Rgds

I like the fact that you are pushing downwards instead of sidewards to start the pin. It kinda frees up your left hand to help stabilise your right hand, and helps to guide the pin in. Visibility seems better as well, just my preference. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:43 PM, Louis09 said:

I am sorry to deceive you all but the first hairspring for training broke off the center piece where it was welded on .

Last try with the one I bought, the hairspring is veryy soft so every little movement deforms it (I tried doing it like in the video to turn the tangle up but I think it is too sensitive), here is a photo of the current point of view, what would you exactly do now ?

thank you  

Be care its starting to look like a slinky toy.

https://youtu.be/SCi_5KpQfUU?si=VhzJFql_cC6OyaQq