Oil is oil or is it??

[Waggy]

So I was just looking in another post about a recipe for making Lubeta V105, which uses 97% IPA and 3% moebius 9010. Using 9010 to make this seemed like an expensive proposition which is when I remembered I have a bottle of Dr. Tillwich 1-3. So I decided to compare the two to see if I could substitute the 9010 with Dr. T 1-3.

Long story short it is difficult to compare the two using the published data and make a fair comparison. Only Dr T quotes lubricity data in the form of friction factor coefficients, hence one must use viscosity as an imperfect analogue for lubricity. So at the data show that over 3 different  temperature ranges the two oils are very different:

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

 

T 1-3 @ 0°C = 340 cSt

T 1-3 @ 20°C = 100 cSt

T 1-3 @ 40°C = 40 cSt

My curiosity peaked and I began to look at other oils.

So here is Mobil 1 5W-20 (data only available for 40°C), which is 49.6 cSt. So we can see that Mobil engine oil is a closer match to 9010 than Dr. T 1-3, at least at 40°C.

So assuming that I use a quality brand to ensure it is clean (debris and impurity free) and consistent formula, why should I not use a 5W-20 engine oil to make my V105 or even...shock horror... lubricate my watch movement.

Note, for reference the cSt for water at 20°C is about 1, and 1 cSt = 1mm2/second.

[tomh207]

Hey Scott, I think Mobil engine oil will have a lot of undesirable additives that would not be great for this purpose. We do have a resident oil expert @canthus maybe you can elaborate better than I if you have time.

 

Tom

[Waggy]

@tomh207 thanks, was more of an academic exercise than a serious suggestion that we should switch to engine oil. I have mental images of me being thrown out into the street like the proverbial leper for even suggesting this. But, that being said I would like to know if there is a scientific justification for not doing this, other than we just don't because we don't.

I suspect that the watch oils go through a more strenuous cleaning regime, but this is just my assumption and perhaps as you suggest have fewer additives?

Also we are assuming that such additives would have a negative impact on the oils performance, but how can we confirm this?

[tomh207]

Hey Scott,

the thing about oils is they are designed for an intended purpose, some will just dry out over time, others will polymerise over time or with heat. As you said in your post viscosity is only one property of an oil with many other variables combining to produce the desired properties to meet the design criteria.

lubrication is always a fun subject around here, (and any other place where watch fiddling is discussed) basically ask any two watchmakers about lubrication and you’ll get three different answers. 
 

I think Canthus did add a fair bit to one of the threadnoughts on lubrication and oils, I’ll see if I can dig it up.

 

Tom

edited to add 

this has a lot of discussion about oil, a place to start

Edited September 13, 2023 by tomh207
Adding link

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

So I was just looking in another post about a recipe for making Lubeta V105, which uses 97% IPA and 3% moebius 9010. Using 9010 to make this seemed like an expensive proposition

Is it expensive? I only buy 2ml bottles of 9010, but made up a small bottle of Lubeta by using a syringe to measure about 0.1ml of 9010 to 3ml of IPA. That's plenty to dunk the reversers in.

(or do it by drops if you don't have a syringe)

Edited September 13, 2023 by mikepilk

[RichardHarris123]

An interesting experiment would be to take timegrapher results from a newly serviced movement, re-service using engine oil and compair results.  Also you would want to see how the movement was working in six months time and beyond. 

[Marc]

Somewhere in the darkest recesses of my rather murky mind is a feint memory that someone on this forum has conducted / is conducting a long term experiment running a watch on engine oil, and I have the vague idea that it might be @AndyHull.

Andy I apologise if it's not you but if it is maybe you could update on the outcome.

[Waggy]

22 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

An interesting experiment would be to take timegrapher results from a newly serviced movement, re-service using engine oil and compair results.  Also you would want to see how the movement was working in six months time and beyond. 

Hmm interesting idea, would suggest 2 new movements, then past history/abuse would not be a factor. Then rebuild one in 9010 and one in engine oil and compare at regular intervals over a period of a year or so. Would be best to have 2 automatic movements on an automatic winder to make sure they are both ran around the clock for the same duration over that time period.

Something like a seagul or other clone?

[mikepilk]

29 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Hmm interesting idea, would suggest 2 new movements, then past history/abuse would not be a factor. Then rebuild one in 9010 and one in engine oil and compare at regular intervals over a period of a year or so. Would be best to have 2 automatic movements on an automatic winder to make sure they are both ran around the clock for the same duration over that time period.

Interesting experiment. 

There are a lot of components in modern engine oils, some of which may not be suitable for watch movements?

[RichardHarris123]

14 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Interesting experiment. 

There are a lot of components in modern engine oils, some of which may not be suitable for watch movements?

Hence the experiment. 

[mikepilk]

8 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Hence the experiment. 

We need to find a tribologist who is also a horologist ..... anyone ?

Edited September 13, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

We need to find a tribologist who is also a horologist ..... anyone ?

Lets volunteer Richard.  

[RichardHarris123]

11 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Lets volunteer Richard.  

I'm the thoughts man. Hehe. 

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm the thoughts man. Hehe. 

Well think about doing it then 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

So I was just looking in another post about a recipe for making Lubeta V105, which uses 97% IPA and 3% moebius 9010. Using 9010 to make this seemed like an expensive proposition which is when I remembered I have a bottle of Dr. Tillwich 1-3. So I decided to compare the two to see if I could substitute the 9010 with Dr. T 1-3.

Long story short it is difficult to compare the two using the published data and make a fair comparison. Only Dr T quotes lubricity data in the form of friction factor coefficients, hence one must use viscosity as an imperfect analogue for lubricity. So at the data show that over 3 different  temperature ranges the two oils are very different:

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

 

T 1-3 @ 0°C = 340 cSt

T 1-3 @ 20°C = 100 cSt

T 1-3 @ 40°C = 40 cSt

My curiosity peaked and I began to look at other oils.

So here is Mobil 1 5W-20 (data only available for 40°C), which is 49.6 cSt. So we can see that Mobil engine oil is a closer match to 9010 than Dr. T 1-3, at least at 40°C.

So assuming that I use a quality brand to ensure it is clean (debris and impurity free) and consistent formula, why should I not use a 5W-20 engine oil to make my V105 or even...shock horror... lubricate my watch movement.

Note, for reference the cSt for water at 20°C is about 1, and 1 cSt = 1mm2/second.

 

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

So I was just looking in another post about a recipe for making Lubeta V105, which uses 97% IPA and 3% moebius 9010. Using 9010 to make this seemed like an expensive proposition which is when I remembered I have a bottle of Dr. Tillwich 1-3. So I decided to compare the two to see if I could substitute the 9010 with Dr. T 1-3.

Long story short it is difficult to compare the two using the published data and make a fair comparison. Only Dr T quotes lubricity data in the form of friction factor coefficients, hence one must use viscosity as an imperfect analogue for lubricity. So at the data show that over 3 different  temperature ranges the two oils are very different:

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

 

T 1-3 @ 0°C = 340 cSt

T 1-3 @ 20°C = 100 cSt

T 1-3 @ 40°C = 40 cSt

My curiosity peaked and I began to look at other oils.

So here is Mobil 1 5W-20 (data only available for 40°C), which is 49.6 cSt. So we can see that Mobil engine oil is a closer match to 9010 than Dr. T 1-3, at least at 40°C.

So assuming that I use a quality brand to ensure it is clean (debris and impurity free) and consistent formula, why should I not use a 5W-20 engine oil to make my V105 or even...shock horror... lubricate my watch movement.

Note, for reference the cSt for water at 20°C is about 1, and 1 cSt = 1mm2/second.

Unfortunately its not all about viscosity, we wish it were. Adherence plays a major role in watch oils, whereas good old engine oil is designed to spread far and wide throughout most of the engjne components. 

[RichardHarris123]

16 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Unfortunately its not all about viscosity, we wish it were. Adherence plays a major role in watch oils, whereas good old engine oil is designed to spread far and wide throughout most of the engjne components. 

Adhesion is mainly due to surface tension, we would need surface tension data for various oils to do a better comparison but that information doesn't seem to be available.  Adhesion does take part in engines, a thin layer of oil coats the parts. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Adhesion is mainly due to surface tension, we would need surface tension data for various oils to do a better comparison but that information doesn't seem to be available.  Adhesion does take part in engines, a thin layer of oil coats the parts. 

sticky yet spreadable, i think i have a jar of peanut butter with those same properties in my fridge. 

[rehajm]

44 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Unfortunately its not all about viscosity, we wish it were. Adherence plays a major role in watch oils, whereas good old engine oil is designed to spread far and wide throughout most of the engjne components.

Yes, that is why we have the bright blue Moebius 9504 and the indigo blue Moebius 9501- so you will invest in Moebius 9501 then be told it will spread all around your movement, so you need to invest in the prettier Moebius 9504, composed of the basic Moebius 9501 grease and a metallic soap to get increased adhesion and consistency. A neutral additive gives it excellent high-pressure resistance and good attrition.

Edited September 13, 2023 by rehajm

[AndyHull]

7 hours ago, Marc said:

Somewhere in the darkest recesses of my rather murky mind is a feint memory that someone on this forum has conducted / is conducting a long term experiment running a watch on engine oil, and I have the vague idea that it might be @AndyHull.

Andy I apologise if it's not you but if it is maybe you could update on the outcome.

I have "serviced" an alarm clock at my wife's mother's house in India, with oil taken directly from the dipstick of a slightly ancient and battered Hyundia i10. I also posted about this sacrilegious act on this forum at the time.

To the best of my knowledge, it is still going strong.

Why engine oil? It was a choice between engine sump oil and sewing machine oil, as it was too hot, and I was too lazy to go in to town looking for anything more appropriate.

However I also did some experiments with servicing a few of USSR era Sekonda (and a couple of other watches, some HMTs for example) with a rough analog of one of the formulas for watch oil that I found while digging through some articles about what might be in said oil.

These watches are still going strong. In fact I think I might grab one and post its health status here soon.

See below for an example.

The formula I used contains a mix of neetsfoot oil, and unscented, hypoallergenic" baby oil at around 30% to 70%,  rather than engine oil. It seems to work remarkably well.

I do tend to use "the good stuff" (Bergeon oils) for anything that I feel might not take too kindly to such wild experiments, but USSR era Sekonda watches and HMT Indian ones seem to thrive on anything remotely oily that you throw at them. In fact they seem to survive on zero servicing for many years, often with no noticeable scars as a result.

Having said all that, I would highly recommend that you do *not* conduct such experiments with any watch that is high value, or belongs to a paying customer. The manufacturer's oiling charts are a far better guide for longevity than the ramblings of a madman that you happened to read on line.

One more thought on the matter. A lot of early watch oils contained fish oils of one variety or another. These do tend to dry out, and leave a sticky residue, so it will be interesting to see if the neetsfoot oil formulation suffers from similar issues. It may take much longer than I am prepared or able to wait, possibly a hundred years or more, before anyone can make any meaningful observations about this though.

Why baby oil? "The ingredients in most commercial baby oil products are 98% mineral oil and 2% fragrance", so if you purchase the unscented stuff then it is basically 100% fine mineral oil, and since the formula called for neetsfoot oil and fine mineral oil, this seemed a perfect substitute.

 

Here is one of the victims subjects of this experiment.

I've attached the tg-timer trace from January 2020 when it was originally serviced, and a trace I just took a few minutes ago.

 

There is not a huge difference between the two.

As you can possibly see from the scratches on the crystal, this watch has been worn quite a lot since I polished the crystal in 2020. The clear, simple, easy to read dial and the gold plated case, coupled with its experimental status make it a bit of a regular on my wrist.  The winding is still buttery smooth too.

Worth bearing in mind is that this is a 404 club watch, and if it does happen to die from some lubricant related cause, it wont be the end of the world.

So far though, (with a sample size of one), the neetsfoot/baby oil experiment seems to be going quite well.

Remember children, don't try this at home with daddy's favourite Rolex.

EDIT: I think I'm going to have to polish those crystal scratches out now. What is seen, cannot be unseen.

10 hours ago, Waggy said:

So here is Mobil 1 5W-20 (data only available for 40°C), which is 49.6 cSt. So we can see that Mobil engine oil is a closer match to 9010 than Dr. T 1-3, at least at 40°C.

So assuming that I use a quality brand to ensure it is clean (debris and impurity free) and consistent formula, why should I not use a 5W-20 engine oil to make my V105 or even...shock horror... lubricate my watch movement.

So long as you choose a low cost test victim, I can think of no reason not to give it a try.
Let me know how the experiment goes. I may even try it myself.

Edited September 13, 2023 by AndyHull

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Unfortunately its not all about viscosity, we wish it were. Adherence plays a major role in watch oils, whereas good old engine oil is designed to spread far and wide throughout most of the engjne components. 

Yes the problem with specifications. We really don't get all the specifications we need like contact angle is interesting and we don't get that. So at some point in time typically all we get is viscosities like here's a chart I once found.

Here's another viscosity chart I found. This one is interesting because he does clocks and he's using automobile oil.  I even have a link where he talks about the oil uses and why

https://www.snclocks.com/TechnicalInformation/Tid-Bits/Tid-Bit-22-Oil-Oilers-Sinks/

 

9 hours ago, tomh207 said:

lubrication is always a fun subject around here, (and any other place where watch fiddling is discussed) basically ask any two watchmakers about lubrication and you’ll get three different answers. 

Actually the fact that we can even have a discussion about lubrication is outstanding. There are other groups where people are very very can't say that an tough opinionated and that would mean trying to have a discussion about lubrication would result in people running for cover and basically the suggestion was never discuss it ever again. It's only been a relatively recently that maybe the opinionated people of going away so typically you cannot discuss horological lubrication in a discussion group

For instance the obsession with how expensive it is. Or the speculation that it is really automotive oil packaged in tiny bottles to rip us off by the Swiss who like to rip us off. But typically for people obsessed with the cost of lubrication I recommend anchor oil is available for a variety of sources like Amazon and its cheap why pay the greedy Swiss when you can get a cheap oil.

Oh here's another interesting chart in addition to viscosities we get something else

Notice there's a reference to contact angle which as I said typically we almost never see. Which unfortunately is important because it tells you whether your oils going to spread with time. Then that assumes that you properly cleaned your watch and you weren't using compromise cleaning fluids like lighter fluid that has bonus additives that might leave a thin film of oil behind perhaps. This is where just because that looks clean doesn't mean that it's clean and anything left behind like a super thin film of oil will dramatically change whatever you're using because it's much more likely to spread away much faster than it normally would half.

7 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

An interesting experiment would be to take timegrapher results from a newly serviced movement, re-service using engine oil and compair results.  Also you would want to see how the movement was working in six months time and beyond. 

This is actually something that everybody on the group should be doing anyway. Actually we should be doing is establishing a proper timing and evaluation of your watches. But in the absence of that check your watch dial down and crown down. Record the rate in most important the amplitude. Wait 24 hours do it again see how your watches doing. Then repeat this every six months and see if you see anything.

But there'll be a problem with the experiment. The experiment will only show up on the timing machine if the lubrication goes bad in a undesirable way such as getting sticky. But lubrication can do other things like what if it's no longer where it's supposed to be for the most part one of its spread. One of the unfortunate problems of synthetic oils that typically do not go bad is they may no longer be functioning as a lubricant. This is a common problem with early automatic watches with  a lot of metal on metal bearings where the lubrication is no longer functioning but it doesn't show up on the timing machine and eventually the automatic mechanism is ground to dust especially if you do get a little bit of moisture into the watches the gaskets disintegrates.

Oh and if you want to have fun with your lubrication experiment? Try servicing a watch lubricating the key less so that the watch can be wound but don't lubricate anything else at all. Now you don't have to worry about your lubrication going bad but see what results you get. Then start lubricating and see if things get better or do they get worse? Yes I've done the experiment it's quite amusing at least until you get the escapement as that usually always has a spectacular improvement.

 

[AndyHull]

Contact angle, for those (like me) who weren't sure of the term. => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_angle

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Contact angle

The annoying thing with contact angle is it's not really the angle lets the problem. In the old days the Swiss used to put a technical sheet in their little tiny can that has their little tiny bottle of oil so somewhere I have a tech sheet on 9010 and another one on 9020 and in that literature it had the contact angle. For which I find fascinating because 9010 has a habit of spreading without epilam so every single reference we have the 9010 basically says use epilam or it will spread. But the 90 20th from my own experience does not spread seems the last forever it is absolute perfect and that wasn't a big difference in contact angle but there was a difference but who knows where I put the technical sheets because for one thing in order to fold up into something that tiny is printed on really thin paper so I put it someplace safe and in a house safe things go

Fortunately it looks like the title were discussing horological oil and I believe somebody asked her made a reference to what is horological oil so I have some images.

For instance here's one it looks promising unfortunately it doesn't have a date now thanks to the Swiss we have to be concerned about the data the oil

This one looks promising although I prefer the second version at least it's priced right

Other advertisements

 

Now the next one is interesting because people have questions like what makes a good lubrication for horology. Tells us a little about the different types of oils of why some were good some more bad. Although the definition a good is interesting in that organic oils tend to lubricate better than synthetic except that in life is not there. Then we get a nice list of all the properties were supposed to have minus other stuff that would be interesting.

The Elgin watch company produced a magazine for their employees. In the old days companies might have a newspaper for the employees the day whatever it is would be all online but Elgin had a magazine with Elgin related stories in all sorts of other interesting stuff. Here's one on lubrication 1948

 

1955 article A little hard to read unfortunately but still interesting and it makes a reference to another Elgin oil that you've never seen something for the military.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waggy]

This is a great discussion, thinking about it, there are so many variables in what makes a 'good' oil it's almost impossible to make an informed judgement just looking at the technical data (of which we are starved). In the absence of such data I suppose all we can do is experiment. However, in my years of working in the oil industry (drilling for it not refining it) I have seen soooo many flawed experiments where the 'results' do not answer the question.

So I purpose the following (and invite suggestions/improvements) for my experiment:

1) I purchase 6 new Seiko NH35 movements at the same time from the same supplier and, therefore, (hopefully) the same manufacturing batch - new movements will remove any doubts about previous wear and tare on the movements skewing the results. Using 3 in each batch will reduce the chances of a fluke result from a random bad movement. Using 2 you wouldn't know which is real and which is the fluke, but with 3 you can spot the fluke.

2) Strip all 6 down

3) Clean all 6 movements using the same method/process

4) Lubricate 3 of the 6 movements using 9010 and HP1300 and reassemble

5) Lubricate the remaining 3 movements using fully synthetic 5W-20 (see below) and HP1300 and reassemble

Note, any errors in reassembly will be systematic errors and therefore should not change the results.

6) Take TG readings of all 6 movements in all positions

7) place all 6 movements on a auto winder and run 24 x 7 repeat step 6 every month for a period of 1 year - looks like I'll need a new winder too for my other watch work ha ha

8 ) Rrview the results to see if there is any significant difference in each type of oil.

One caveat, if I get a failure in the first week after reassembly I would like the opportunity to strip, lube and rebuild the movement, as this is almost certainly an error in the reassembly(er) and not the lubricant and therefore shouldn't unduly influence the results.

My weapon of choice: 

Let me know what you think of my proposed experiment method, and/or you want to join in and pool data/results.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Waggy

[JohnR725]

On 9/13/2023 at 5:05 PM, AndyHull said:

Contact angle, for those (like me) who weren't sure of the term.

Thinking about contact angle and other lubrication properties there is a book. Book seems expensive but you have a preview here you get see if first about 111 pages with all sorts of lubrication details. We also get the contact angle of some popular oils. Plus all sorts of other interesting specifications.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1awuxJ5v2ucC&pg=PA40&dq=Contact+angle+9010+Moebius&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu3rD-3LGBAxUkIDQIHXIGBQkQ6AF6BAgFEAE#v=onepage&q=Contact angle 9010 Moebius&f=false

 

[Kalanag]

Wow! This book is a very valuable source of information!