Adjusting the beat rate on a Valjoux 7730

[KevinR]

I have a 1969 Stowa “Big Eyes” with a 7730 movement. I have been able to adjust the beat error within a tolerable amount but I am having trouble with the beat rate. I have run out of room on the amount that I can adjust the beat rate regulator down. As it sits now I’m gaining about four minutes a day. I’m looking for a solution. I’m wondering if it is possible to take off the hairspring from the beat rate regulator separate from the one for the beat error adjustment and move it to the other side with the hairspring reattached so that I have more room to slow it down?

Please give me your suggestions my knowledge on this is very limited.

Here are a couple of pictures one of the watch end of the movement and the reading I was able to get with the beat error adjusted to a tolerable range. You can see where the regulators are sitting at in the picture from what’s shown on the read out.

[Nibbler]

Someone else can chime in here but are the labels reversed on your picture?

Matt

[KevinR]

No the labels are correct. The top one the smallest of the two is the one for adjusting the beat error. The other one is for the timing speed. Part of my problem but not all of it is that they both want to move together even though they are two separate parts. This is just inherent but even if I could move the speed adjustment separately I still don’t have enough room pushing it fully to the slow side to get it anywhere near what I need to correct the problem.

[Marc]

As @Nibbler has pointed out your labels are the wrong way round. The beat error is adjusted with the stud carrier which is the one on the left, the rate is adjusted with the regulator which is the one on the right.

Other than that check for stuck H/S coils which could be due to magnetism or contamination with oil/dirt etc. Also that the H/S is not contacting anything as it breaths in and out. It should be flat and parallel to the balance wheel rim, and it shouldn't come into contact with anything other than the regulator pins.

[KevinR]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

As @Nibbler has pointed out your labels are the wrong way round. The beat error is adjusted with the stud carrier which is the one on the left, the rate is adjusted with the regulator which is the one on the right.

Other than that check for stuck H/S coils which could be due to magnetism or contamination with oil/dirt etc. Also that the H/S is not contacting anything as it breaths in and out. It should be flat and parallel to the balance wheel rim, and it shouldn't come into contact with anything other than the regulator pins.

I guess I was misinformed. I was going by a couple of different videos found online one that even had arrows pointing to the two different levers with them labeled the way I have them labeled. Let me try and adjust it again and see what I can come up with. I’ll keep you posted.

[Marc]

13 minutes ago, KevinR said:

No the labels are correct

They really are the wrong way round.

I have just looked again at your pic with the test result and if the snow storm at the bottom of the screen shot is your trace then you can't really draw any sensible conclusions from the result other than the movement needs a proper clean and service. The trace appears to be so irregular that the timing machine is actually unable to deduce an amplitude. You want to see two clean, regular lines of dots (or just one if the beat error is zero), and an amplitude of 220 degrees or more before you start to worry too much about daily rate.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Marc
spelling

[KevinR]

3 minutes ago, Marc said:

They really are the wrong way round.

I have just looked again at your pic with the test result and if the snow storm at the bottom of the screen shot is your trace then you can't really draw any sensible conclusions from the result other than the movement needs a proper clean and service. The trace appears to be so irregular that the timing machine is actually unable to deduce an amplitude. You want to see two clean, regular lines of dots (or just one if the beat error is zero), and an amplitude of 220 degrees or more before you start to worry too much about daily rate.

Yes you are correct that snowstorm is what the reading it was getting. I believe I do have one image from my first test that did show the amplitude. But yes I think I’m going to just let my local watchmaker go over it. He has never worked on one of the 7730 movements he has only worked on 7750s.

[KevinR]

I know it’s still not the best but I’m gonna let it sit like this for a while and see what it does. At least it doesn’t look like a snowstorm anymore. Lol

[Marc]

That's definitely an improvement

[Plato]

29 minutes ago, KevinR said:

I know it’s still not the best but I’m gonna let it sit like this for a while and see what it does. At least it doesn’t look like a snowstorm anymore. Lol

It doesn't look good at all, the 773x can run a lot better than that. Definitely think about a service, soon, or don't use it. 

[KevinR]

4 minutes ago, Plato said:

It doesn't look good at all, the 773x can run a lot better than that. Definitely think about a service, soon, or don't use it. 

 I am actually taking it to get a new crown put on it and have the bezel aligned. So yes I’m going to have him to adjust it for me while it’s there. It had actually just been serviced before I got it but then it traveled halfway around the world to get to me and I’m sure that is part of what threw it off. But yes I am going to get it running right because I do understand this is a great movement and can run very well. Even at being 52 years old.

Edited October 24, 2021 by KevinR
Correct

[Plato]

26 minutes ago, KevinR said:

 I am actually taking it to get a new crown put on it and have the bezel aligned. So yes I’m going to have him to adjust it for me while it’s there. It had actually just been serviced before I got it but then it traveled halfway around the world to get to me and I’m sure that is part of what threw it off. But yes I am going to get it running right because I do understand this is a great movement and can run very well. Even at being 52 years old.

A recently serviced watch shouldn't run like that. I'm an amateur but no way would those readings be acceptable to me. Travelling around the world won't affect a watch and being 52 years is nothing, it's a fairly modern watch. 

Getting it sorted now will save you time/money in the future... you might even be able to do it yourself. There's a ton of experts on this forum willing to help. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Plato said:

It doesn't look good at all, the 773x can run a lot better than that. Definitely think about a service, soon, or don't use it. 

That is correct. Before worrying about timing and beat error, one must look at the general pattern, which says that it's running on dried lubricants, or none at all. That causes pivots and stones to wear, eventually making a more costly repair needed.

 

[Nucejoe]

Is it my poor eyesite or no terminal curve is formed on the hairspring?  

 

 

[KevinR]

12 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Is it my poor eyesite or no terminal curve is formed on the hairspring?  

 

 

If you tell me what that is lol I’ll let you know. I’m not sure what you are referring to.If you tell me what that is lol I’ll let you know. I’m not sure what you are referring to.

[Graziano]

47 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Is it my poor eyesite or no terminal curve is formed on the hairspring?  

 

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 

 

I agree Joe, and it appears in the photos that the coils are touching under the balance cock. Plus terminal curve doesn't seem to exist. Or maybe my eyes are the same as yours Joe. 

Graziano 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Graziano

[KevinR]

5 minutes ago, Graziano said:

 

 

I agree Joe, the hairspring looks like it needs work and it appears in the photos that the coils are touching under the balance cock. Plus terminal curve doesn't seem to exist. Or maybe my eyes are the same as yours Joe. 

Graziano 

Don’t know if these help any. You might be able to see a little bit more than in the original photo I posted.
 

[Nucejoe]

22 minutes ago, Graziano said:

Or maybe my eyes are the same as yours Joe. 

Graziano 

Hello G,  We best swap eye glasses, one of us might actually see better.    lol.

Regards 

Joe

 

[Nucejoe]

26 minutes ago, KevinR said:

Don’t know if these help any. You might be able to see a little bit more than in the original photo I posted.
 

Hi Kevin,  There is no sign of a terminal curve ,  hence you are altering the coil's concentricity as you move the regulator arm.

As is,  that four minutes will be corrected by moving  regulator arm anticlockwise.

Regs 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KevinR]

I want to thank everyone for the help on this timing issue. So far for the last seven hours it has been running perfect with no variation in time. I’m gonna let it run through tomorrow to give it a 24 hour period and see how it’s doing. But again just wanted to thank everyone for their help on here, I’ll let you know how it goes. 
 

Kevin

[Graziano]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hello G,  We best swap eye glasses, one of us might actually see better.    lol.

Regards 

Joe

 

Maybe just one lens change over then we'll see 2 just to be sure 

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, KevinR said:

If you tell me what that is lol I’ll let you know. I’m not sure what you are referring to.If you tell me what that is lol I’ll let you know. I’m not sure what you are referring to.

Heres a good vid showing how to shape an end curve.

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2017/4/27/hairspring-week-forming-the-endcurve

 

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Heres a good vid showing how to shape an end curve

Interesting, but please don't try to copy this on your beautiful watch. It may not even be necessary. Let your watchmaker take a good look at it.

[nickelsilver]

Not all watches with flat spring have the distinctive "dog leg" from the terminal curve to the hair spring body. This one looks OK to me, maybe needs a little bit of centering, but I think it's otherwise original and correct.

[KevinR]

4 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Interesting, but please don't try to copy this on your beautiful watch. It may not even be necessary. Let your watchmaker take a good look at it.

No problem thanks, I’m pretty much leaving it where it is. I’m going to do another small adjustment later today. It has lost about two seconds over the last 17 hours. Not too bad and a heck of a lot better than what it was doing.