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Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic


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16 hours ago, meanoldmanning said:

They are available on eBay from a couple sellers.

I'd prefer to replace the barrel complete but I just can't find any...:( The part number is 201.024. Cousins lists it as "Obsolete" and no luck on eBay, watchmaterial.com, or speedtimerkollektion.com. So reward to anyone who can find one for me! ;)

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I'd prefer to replace the barrel complete but I just can't find any...[emoji20] The part number is 201.024. Cousins lists it as "Obsolete" and no luck on eBay, watchmaterial.com, or speedtimerkollektion.com. So reward to anyone who can find one for me! [emoji6]

Yeah, they pop up from time to time on eBay. Also search for 0201.075. That was the subsequent part number.


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17 hours ago, meanoldmanning said:

I’d kind of like JDM’s thoughts on this as he has a bit of knowledge on these.

Could you provide a link/links. Checked his SEIKO 6r15 service walk through but I don't think that's what you're referring to?

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Thanks for clarifying! [mention=1542]jdm[/mention]listed it as having that part number, whereas my PDF mentions 0201.024. See this post.

I don’t know what rules are for posting links to live auctions so do an eBay search for NOS New Seiko 201 024 as there is currently a listing. They are kind of pricey considering how inexpensive the actual mov’t is though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, meanoldmanning said:

I don’t know what rules are for posting links to live auctions

Neither do I, but if it is in response to a post looking for a particular part I really can't see any problem. Not even if you're the one selling it. Well, that's just my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, meanoldmanning said:

do an eBay search for NOS New Seiko 201 024

Yes, silly expensive, but I always get in touch with sellers and make an offer. Surprisingly often they're willing to negotiate.

Anyway, I'm contemplating getting myself some Kluber Chronogrease P125. Insanely expensive, but it doesn't seem to have an expiration date like the Moebius greases and oils, so maybe it will last "forever"? Here's @JohnR725's excellent illustrations for how to apply it.

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5 grams of Kluber Chronogrease P125 is £65 or £78 including tax (CousinsUK.com). That is, the price per kilogram of this wondrous stuff is  £15,600.00 :startle:

If that doesn't buy me a decent power reserve I guess nothing else will.

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21 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

5 grams of Kluber Chronogrease P125 is £65 or £78 including tax (CousinsUK.com). That is, the price per kilogram of this wondrous stuff is  £15,600.00 :startle:

It is a ridiculous and unjustifiable price,  in my opinion one should avoid feeding the sharks. Last time I have used graphite loaded natural grease, now guess what, the watch winds and delivers power perfectly.

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1 minute ago, jdm said:

It is a ridiculous and unjustifiable price,  in my opinion one should avoid feeding the sharks. Last time I have used graphite loaded natural grease, now guess what, the watch winds and delivers power perfectly.

the problem is were in a dying the field. The supply and demand in particular demand is nonexistent that means the people supplying are going to charge accordingly. If the oil companies made 1,000,000,000,000 gallons of oil a year because they put in automobiles and we could use it on watches it would be dirt cheap. But when everything is a special day it's going to cost more unfortunately.

This is where if you are in a business you would offload this cost on to the customer and probably write it off I your taxes but as a hobbyist were screwed.

Then unfortunately if the p125 solves your problem then it's worth it.

2 hours ago, meanoldmanning said:

I don’t know what rules are for posting links to live auctions so do an eBay search for NOS New Seiko 201 024 as there is currently a listing. They are kind of pricey considering how inexpensive the actual mov’t is though.

if you look at the top header of the message board is a category I think says guidelines we should all read it from time to time. As far as I can tell posting links to anything for sale is not a problem unless. The unless party is and Mark will come down on you for this one which he recently did no posting to things that you have a financial interest in. In other words if you're selling something on eBay you're going to make a profit off of us that's frowned upon. Or even posting a link to your website if you're running a commercial business.

so item for sale anywhere in the universe and you think it's a good product telling us about it no problem. A lot of times when people don't tell me which country therein I would just do a search I find somebody selling it and say that's which you should get and let you figure out where the heck you really get it from.

The only place where I deviate from marks rules is if someone is looking for horological education point them in the direction of marks classes as opposed to somewhere else if it's practical we should at least try to support the messageboard.

 

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2 minutes ago, meanoldmanning said:

Sorry about John, I’m usually accessing the forum through Tapatalk and the guidelines tab isn’t easy to find.

Give a try to mobile browser access and you'll find that the excellent  quality software of this forum allows complete and unhindered access to all functions.

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Just search on ebay seiko 7s36 barrel there is quite a few listings 2 that are oem seiko but as stated very expensive. There is one forbunder $30. You could also get a NH35 movement new for $30 and use that barrel. Also you the barrels for 7s26 and 7002 will also fit.


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3 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

 You could also get a NH35 movement new for $30 and use that barrel. Also you the barrels for 7s26 and 7002 will also fit.

No the NH barrel does not fit because it has a different teeth count. On Seiko branded ones that was changed going from B to C. Again my reference doc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRN2UULQKTfKmhRStZhDdIOIQrqd6sPB-g6x2SKyQQjOvTBjG_7TQXQhAT4f1WqAX5QAPkIimi-3jqd/pubhtml

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On 6/15/2020 at 8:22 AM, saswatch88 said:


Yes seiko sells only complete barrels but that does not mean you cant service a 7 series barrel and change MS. Personally i would just get the barrel assembly but it’s up to you. Do not use 8200 whatever you do. Jdm has the tech sheets but I find they don’t normally help you in this particular situation.


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I know this might annoy people, but I have serviced 200+ automatic seikos and have used 8200 on the barrel walls. There have been no problems with power reserve or amplitude.


I have a 40 watch collection that I have serviced as well in the same manner. I have applied 8200 to Rolex's and Omega's. My 1040 Seamaster is running on my wrist right now.

Yes correct braking grease is ideal, but to say that "whatever you do" is a bit harsh. 


It all depends on budget and availability.


I started off servicing with just Moebius 8000 for all pivots and some of the watches are still running perfect - albeit quite oily after 5 years.

It is a matter of desired performance.

Also regarding re-using barrels and springs - if they are in decent condition, why not? I had the first unusable barrel come on my bench and that was from a 7017 that came from Japan that was rusty and horrible. I swapped in a good condition 7002 barrel and bob's your uncle, it's running with beautiful amplitude and reserve.

Out of curiosity I will buy some braking grease and give it a go.

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1 hour ago, jdm said:

No the NH barrel does not fit because it has a different teeth count. On Seiko branded ones that was changed going from B to C. Again my reference doc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRN2UULQKTfKmhRStZhDdIOIQrqd6sPB-g6x2SKyQQjOvTBjG_7TQXQhAT4f1WqAX5QAPkIimi-3jqd/pubhtml

That’s why your the guy with the sheets. I never get barrels too expensive, I just get a new MS for $15. but I saw a post a while back about someone using a barrel from a nh35 for a 7002 on WUS guess he didn’t have the sheets.

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1 hour ago, AlexeiJ1 said:

I know this might annoy people, but I have serviced 200+ automatic seikos and have used 8200 on the barrel walls. There have been no problems with power reserve or amplitude.


I have a 40 watch collection that I have serviced as well in the same manner. I have applied 8200 to Rolex's and Omega's. My 1040 Seamaster is running on my wrist right now.

Yes correct braking grease is ideal, but to say that "whatever you do" is a bit harsh. 


It all depends on budget and availability.


I started off servicing with just Moebius 8000 for all pivots and some of the watches are still running perfect - albeit quite oily after 5 years.

It is a matter of desired performance.

Also regarding re-using barrels and springs - if they are in decent condition, why not? I had the first unusable barrel come on my bench and that was from a 7017 that came from Japan that was rusty and horrible. I swapped in a good condition 7002 barrel and bob's your uncle, it's running with beautiful amplitude and reserve.

Out of curiosity I will buy some braking grease and give it a go.

Yea well if you want to use 8200 it’s up to you, to each is own but it’s not made for automatic barrels so I don’t believe it should be used with them. It may work for other movements okay but 8200 would not mesh well with Seikos they don’t have high amp to begin with so using something that can cause slippage doesn’t help....Rolex uses 8217 and not too sound like an A$$ but if you own a Rolex, then I don’t see why you wouldn’t spend the extra $10 and get what Rolex uses. These watches are thousands of dollars so it just doesn’t make sense to me.

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2 hours ago, AlexeiJ1 said:

I know this might annoy people, but I have serviced 200+ automatic seikos and have used 8200 on the barrel walls. There have been no problems with power reserve or amplitude.

 

2 hours ago, AlexeiJ1 said:

I started off servicing with just Moebius 8000 for all pivots and some of the watches are still running perfect - albeit quite oily after 5 years.

out of curiosity do you have a timing machine? In other words how do you know that you are amplitude is fine and the power reserve is fine?. Because unfortunately if the breaking grease doesn't break when the mainspring slips it slips too much. Minor catch to automatic watches you would probably never notice it on your wrist because you're just going to make up the power loses.

the only concerned with any of the 8000 series lubrication's is they have natural oils which have a tendency of going bad with time. But they also have mineral oil which shouldn't go bad with time.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity do you have a timing machine?

 

3 hours ago, AlexeiJ1 said:

There have been no problems with power reserve or amplitude.

So, I take it that you do have a timing machine to determine the amplitude? If wearing an automatic watch consistently and let's say it reaches about  60 % or so of the specified power reserve before the MS slips, I'm not sure any problems would be noted by the wearer if the movement is regulated for this basis.

Anyway, I find it very interesting that you have good results with 8200 so if you have the opportunity to elaborate on your findings I would find it highly interesting. Perhaps expensive braking grease is just a hoax and we'll do just as well, or perhaps even better, with plain 8200!?

There's more than likely some snake oil floating around in this business! ;)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I’m still struggling to get a decent power reserve on my Orient cal. 46E40. As far as I can tell and as a reference, the barrel and spring seem to be identical to the Seiko cal. 7S-series, for example my Seiko cal. 7S36B.

As a replacement I use a brand new Generale Ressorts # GR2378X mainspring (0.95 x .12 x 400 x 10.5 Automatic). In my first attempt I used Moebius 8217 but only got about 24 hours of power reserve. I then read what I could find about it here on WRT and got inspired by this post by @nickelsilver. So, I got myself some emery paper, rubbed the wall so that the brass shone through and applied a thin layer of Moebius Glissalube A 8213 to the barrel wall. To keep the barrel steady while lubricating I shoved a smoothing broach in the hole of the barrel. However, when I was to remove the broach from the barrel it had gotten stuck in the barrel hole, and not realizing the broach is super finely threaded, and left threaded at that, I ruined the barrel trying to get it out of the hole :pulling-hair-out:

So, I had to source a new barrel, and let me assure you, Orient and their retailers won’t be helpful. Eventually, I found a seller on eBay in Spain who knew the barrel between my Orient cal. 46E40 and Orient cal. 46943 are identical and I bought a scrap movement from him and extracted the barrel.

After two weeks of waiting for the new (used) barrel, I decided not to rub the wall of the barrel but instead buy some uber-expensive Kluber P125 and apply it to the best of my ability in accordance with this post by @JohnR725. However, this only lessened the power reserve to about 17 hours. So, I took the barrel apart and took the below pictures of what I saw. Don’t know what the pictures add but nevertheless...

01.thumb.jpg.6d5bf004c94a3cbf3f0da4e96c82905b.jpg

02.thumb.jpg.1c615149b7c059a321cb3f419874f161.jpg

03.thumb.jpg.d284f58f41bebcf203fb66ce04fbf00a.jpg

04.thumb.jpg.2db89aa7149c663f86ca8c9a297b8869.jpg

05.thumb.jpg.f0093f3aad66113fceffa0476a1386ad.jpg

06.thumb.jpg.ecef10ab7b2e1b1bba17c98c4d85863f.jpg

I’m beginning to feel extremely frustrated about this and don’t know what to try next. Perhaps rub the barrel wall to expose some of the brass and apply Glissalube A? Perhaps no braking grease at all? Perhaps the replacement General Ressorts spring in some way just isn’t compatible with Japanese barrels? I’m really lost here and don’t know where to go next. So, some help and inspiration would be greatly appreciated.
 

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4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Try putting way way more Kluber P125 On the barrel wall like perhaps all the way around the wall.

Thanks John! I'll give it a try and will report back.

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11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Try putting way way more Kluber P125 On the barrel wall like perhaps all the way around the wall.

Unfortunately it didn't help one bit. If anything, things got from bad to worse. With a small amount of Kluber P125 the ratchet wheel would make 4.5 revolutions before slipping (about 17 hours of power reserve). With Kluber P125 around the entire wall and pretty generously at that, the ratchet wheel would only do 4 revolutions before slipping. I can't hear or feel the spring slipping so I count the revolutions when winding down.

To make matters even more annoying I've ruined two new very expensive Generale Ressorts springs in the process trying to wind them back into my K&D mainspring winder (which really sucks). I first tried to get it back using my fingers, but it only resulted in slipping around and getting Kluber all over the place. I guess replacing mainsprings by hand requires quite a bit of practising.

I can't remember when I felt this frustrated trying to fix a watch. It seems so easy, and still it fails. I wonder what those Japanese people are doing in the Orient/Seiko factory.

In some thread someone mentioned that @jdm was the "master" of these Japanese movements and how to handle the barrel/mainspring. I haven't yet searched it like crazy it but I'll see what I can find.

So, perhaps emery paper on the barrel wall to get a rough brass surface and then some Moebius Glissalube A? And again, I will have to order another mainspring, or a Bergeon mainspring winder, or both to make sure :(

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There is something definitely really wrong here. I know from experience when I listen to bad advice for a Seiko and applied the Kluber P125 Around the entire rim. When I was manually winding it up with the screw of the ratchet wheel and I reached the end I almost thought I was going to break the screw head off. Yes it slipped but it was so dramatically not slip paying which is why thought I'd going to break the head off. The you seem to be getting the exact opposite of what should be occurring there is definitely something not right here at all.

The dimensions of the new spring versus the old are they the same for the Springs look the same?

 

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