Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[Klassiker]

3 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Should I move to 8217 instead of 8213

What power reserve are you getting? Is it in spec. or somewhere close?

[Paul80]

Regarding the power reserve question.

It's difficult to tell as on the Citizen watches, I can't feel when the spring is fully wound or feel the point when the spring slips, and on my Seiko watches the ones I have don't offer manual wind but again if I try to wind using a screw driver directly at the barrel again I can't feel when the spring is fully wound.

Could this be an indication the 8213 is too weak ?

Edited April 22, 2022 by Paul80

[Klassiker]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

Could this be an indication the 8213 is too weak ?

No, that is how the slipping should be,  nice and gradual. Just wind the Citizens manually. 50 back-and-forths each on the crowns should be plenty. Then leave them to run down undisturbed. If you wear a Seiko for two or three days consecutively, that should be enough to fully wind it, unless your day-job is as a living statue or similar.

[PeterS]

I’ve replaced the original mainspring with GR2534X.

I put a little bit of Moebius 8213 braking grease on the barrel wall. Small amount, three small ‘blobs’ in three places 120 degrees apart.
The amplitude was terrible, 190 degrees (the train has been lubricated).
I took it apart and put a thin layer of the grease all around the barrel wall. That made it even worse, I’m getting amplitude 150 degrees.

I’m looking at the oiling chart and Seiko specifies S2 grease for the barrel, including the barrel wall.
The Seiko bridle is considerably thicker than the GR bridle so I’m guessing the breaking grease may not be needed when using the original mainspring but that’s knackered so I have to use the GR mainspring and I don’t have S2 grease.

I’m thinking maybe not to put any grease on the barrel wall if more grease causes even worse amplitude? Or maybe put 8200 grease on the mainspring and the wall?
I can “fully” wind it, 12 turns or thereabout but when I release the power I’m only getting about 3 turns.
Any idea what I need to do to get this running nicely?

[Mircea]

Found the good thread, There is the answer that I gave in another thread, sorry for that.

Hello PeterS

I have had success with Moebius 8217 on the barrel wall of a 6138B movement, that use the same base mechanism as the 6106a. All seems to be good with power reserve of about 46 hours (that I find very good for a 45 year watch and mainspring…)

Hope it helps!

Mircea

[Paul80]

Has anyone got any views on using 8207 as a braking grease  as recommended by Kalle over at Chronoglide Watchmaking ?

Thanks

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Has anyone got any views on using 8207 as a braking grease  as recommended by Kalle over at Chronoglide Watchmaking ?

Thanks

 8207 isn't described in any literature I can find as a braking grease. But it is suggested for slow moving high pressure situations, for example, to lubricate a mainspring.

8213, also called Glissalube A, is for brass barrels. 8212, also called Glissalube B, is for aluminum barrels. Easy to remember, the letter is reversed (A for brass, B for aluminum, haha). 8217 is general purpose, and supposedly has the highest braking effect of the three, but can't find hard evidence of that. I use Kluber P125 for everything, no issues. In the past I used the Glissalubes, no problem. If I was doing some watches for me for fun, I wouldn't hesitate to get 8217 as my universal braking grease.

 

If Kalle is using 8207 for barrel walls, he's using the wrong grease. But he also believes ultrasonics hurt watch movements.

[Paul80]

Thanks.

I will get some 8217 next time I order from Cousins.

I did look at P125 but soon looked away as soon as I saw the price. 

 

 

[Kalanag]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:23 AM, nickelsilver said:

 If Kalle is using 8207 for barrel walls, he's using the wrong grease. But he also believes ultrasonics hurt watch movements.

nickelsilver, I highly respect your knowledge! Please tell me, why 8207 is wrong when it seems to work well in a professional workshop. I‘m confused about the braking grease discussion. The technical literatur of JLC recommends the clock oil „859 + PTFE“ for this application. This is also not specified as a braking grease and lets me assume, that each thick grease with a dry lubricant additive (graphite, PTFE, MoS2) should work. I once used Molykote DX (PTFE) in a rlx 3135 clone and got 42h power reserve. Eventually I will test an automatic watch with different barrel wall lubrications and report here

Edited April 26, 2022 by Kalanag

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, Kalanag said:

nickelsilver, I highly respect your knowledge! Please tell me, why 8207 is wrong when it seems to work well in a professional workshop. I‘m confused about the braking grease discussion. The technical literatur of JLC recommends the clock oil „859 + PTFE“ for this application. This is also not specified as a braking grease and lets me assume, that each thick grease with a dry lubricant additive (graphite, PTFE, MoS2) should work. I once used Molykote DX (PTFE) in a rlx 3135 clone and got 42h power reserve. Eventually I will test an automatic watch with different barrel wall lubrications and report here

I'm not a tribologist so I don't know the answer. I do work professionally for a living, and my reputation is very important, so I use the lubricants recommended by the industry, with excellent results.

 

Lubrication and anecdotal unscientific observation vs tightly controlled testing is something I've been a spectator to since many years ago as a mechanic. I try to keep my dog out of the fight.

 

How old is the JLC literature you have?

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by nickelsilver

[Kalanag]

28 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

…Lubrication and anecdotal unscientific observation vs tightly controlled testing is something I been a spectator to since many years ago as a mechanic. I try to keep my dog out of the fight.

How old is the JLC literature you have?

I totally agree to your point of view as a professional watchmaker.

The JLC literature is dated 2005 (download from Cousins UK).

Edited April 26, 2022 by Kalanag

[grsnovi]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:23 AM, nickelsilver said:

If Kalle is using 8207 for barrel walls

Is it at all possible that he mis-read 8217 and/or mis-stated as 8207?

Won't 8207 just be solid graphite at room temperature?

[nickelsilver]

22 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Is it at all possible that he mis-read 8217 and/or mis-stated as 8207?

Won't 8207 just be solid graphite at room temperature?

Ask Kalle, I'm sure he has an answer. I'm curious too if his aversion to ultrasonics is due to the 2k+ price increase on the ACA900 cleaning machine with ultrasonic. Or one of his mentors who cut his teeth prior to commonplace electric motors told him "it's bad". US has been the defacto cleaning method for watches for 60+ years. He also epilames the whole pallet fork. 40 years ago was ok, from 20 years ago not ok. Why? "They" figured out it was better to just do the stones.

 

YT is great, but it's not all great content 

[Paul80]

Yep it was 8207, he showed a closeup of the bottle he was using and the number was clearly visible.

[Kalanag]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

Is it at all possible that he mis-read 8217 and/or mis-stated as 8207?

He showed the grease pot where definitely „8207“ was written on in one of his videos. Kalle always repeats his credo that there ist no best method and that every watchmaker should follow that procedure that gives him the best results.

Oops Paul was faster

Edited April 26, 2022 by Kalanag

[Kramm]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:37 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

As an added question kramm, would you use this on the barrel wall only and leave the rest of the mainspring unlubed? 

I just apply it to barrel wall (don't over do it, you just need a small amount). I usually coat mainspring with a thin film of Moebius 8200.

[Kalanag]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:49 PM, Kalanag said:

…The technical literatur of JLC recommends the clock oil „859 + PTFE“ for this application. This is also not specified as a braking grease and lets me assume, that each thick grease with a dry lubricant additive (graphite, PTFE, MoS2) should work. I once used Molykote DX (PTFE) in a rlx 3135 clone and got 42h power reserve. Eventually I will test an automatic watch with different barrel wall lubrications and report here

Just for the record: I used the priceworthy „859-8 + PTFE“ (Dr.Tillwich) as a breaking grease for a 50 years old Citizen 6900 ladies automatic caliber. The result is good so far. Smooth winding and a power reserve of 38,5 hours (38h specified).

I always wonder how this huge bridle (brake) fits into the tiny barrel…

Edited June 9, 2022 by Kalanag

[Kalanag]

And once again I used 859+PTFE as a breaking grease with success. I serviced an ETA 2892-2 which shows a smooth manual wind and a power reserve well above 42h (spec).

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

Hey guys, 

Please don't kill me for asking a stupid question. 

I'm mostly working manual wind watches for now, and I am fully aware that the Moebius lubrication chart suggests 8200, 8141 or 8201 for the mainspring itself. These are considered "grease", right? 

So far, I've only bought 4 lubricants and would love to avoid buying more for now. I have 9010, 9104, 9415, and 9504. Since 9504 is also a grease (like 8200) and meant for metal-on-metal, I've so far used that on (=thin film along the whole length of) the mainspring... 

Is that a big mistake, or ok? 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Cheers! 

 

28 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Hey guys, 

Please don't kill me for asking a stupid question. 

I'm mostly working manual wind watches for now, and I am fully aware that the Moebius lubrication chart suggests 8200, 8141 or 8201 for the mainspring itself. These are considered "grease", right? 

So far, I've only bought 4 lubricants and would love to avoid buying more for now. I have 9010, 9104, 9415, and 9504. Since 9504 is also a grease (like 8200) and meant for metal-on-metal, I've so far used that on (=thin film along the whole length of) the mainspring... 

Is that a big mistake, or ok? 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Cheers! 

PS: I get a full power reserve. So that's ok. But don't know if it would be a problem in a few years. 

[tomh207]

I think you are probably fine with that for manual wind, automatic you really need a braking grease. I think most of us as amateurs use 8217 for that.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

33 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Moebius

Did you know they have a website and you can look up the specifications the lubrication's there

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

34 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Since 9504 is also a grease (like 8200) and meant for metal-on-metal, I've so far used that on (=thin film along the whole length of) the mainspring... 

Is that a big mistake, or ok? 

Is really only two ways to tell if you made a mistake if the amplitude is way too low or several years from now you taken apart and its disintegrated  the lubrication didn't do its job.

I've heard that students in school use 9501 for mainsprings even though mainsprings supposedly Do not need lubrication. So I find it interesting when you go to school you learn how to lubricate a mainspring even though they typically don't. Although this depends like all lubrication questions on who you're asking.

If you look at the above website you'll find that the only difference in 9501 and 9504 is the 9504 has an additional property. They've added 10% boron nitride Which is a very high pressure lubricant. I find together it makes for a very nice grease.

 

[Knebo]

Thanks a lot! Wow, you guys are fast! 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Did you know they have a website and you can look up the specifications the lubrication's there

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

Yes, I have the overview table and the individual tech sheets, see attachments below. 8200 and 9504 are certainly quite different, but I don't know what the mainspring really needs... E.g. is there a benefit of high thixotropy (i.e. 8200)? 

 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Is really only two ways to tell if you made a mistake if the amplitude is way too low or several years from now you taken apart and its disintegrated  the lubrication didn't do its job. 

Amplitude is great. Between 280 and 310 depending on the position. So let's see in a few years, haha

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I've heard that students in school use 9501 for mainsprings even though mainsprings supposedly Do not need lubrication. So I find it interesting when you go to school you learn how to lubricate a mainspring even though they typically don't. Although this depends like all lubrication questions on who you're asking.

My understanding is that modern, new, fresh-out-of-the-box mainsprings have a special coating or are pre-lubricated. So now lubing needed. 

However, when servicing an older/vintage mainspring (and not replacing it with a new one), they certainly need lubrication. 

Which school uses 9501? That would give me high confidence that 9504 is also fine. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

Which school uses 9501? That would give me high confidence that 9504 is also fine.

I was told by one of the students at North Seattle community college. They teaching a Rolex program. But what becomes interesting with the various schools is they don't always teach exactly the same thing even people that I've gone to the same schools would get in conflicts especially over lubrication or other things because differing teachers can teach differing things.

[Knebo]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I was told by one of the students at North Seattle community college. They teaching a Rolex program. But what becomes interesting with the various schools is they don't always teach exactly the same thing even people that I've gone to the same schools would get in conflicts especially over lubrication or other things because differing teachers can teach differing things.

That's a good reference! I'll take it and continue with my approach for now. I'll report back in a few years if any issues show up