Little French traveler clock

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

Currently I'm servicing a little French traveler clock, measuring 5.5 x 7 cm and has a cylinder escapement. I bought it in 1995 in Melbourne, Australia. The enamel dial shows the inscription of the retailer: " T. Gaunt & Co, Melbourne, French made", so the clock has stayed or always came home again .... until I bought it

Since 1995 it has been on "display" or in the drawer, it ran'ish but now it was time to give it a good service.

Couple of questions;

- An age estimation?

- Any other noteworthy information such as commonality of this size or any other remarks?

- I like to open the spring barrel, but I'm not sure what the best method is to take the cover off? Any hints will be greatly appreciated !

 

Hope to hear ........

Thanks in advance !

[JohnR725]

We should wait until one of the clock people come around but I would whack the arbor with a hammer. Make sure it's a brass hammer so as not to put burrs on the arbor.

Somewhere in a watch discussion group this subject came up and apparently and I didn't pay attention to the physics of it whacking to remove the cover sounds harsh but causes less distortion than a slow push.

Then of course there is the notch supposedly that's there for you to pry the lid off.  

Then as far as removing the mainspring goes we got that covered. It's in the video in the link below third-generation clockmaker and? There is even a video of putting the spring back in personally I wouldn't recommend this method.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/18704-another-idiot/

[Endeavor]

@JohnR725: Looking at the video in the link, what comes to my mind is the expression; "no prisoners taken", "do or die" 

For sure, he's a whole lot faster than I'm !

Great stuff !!

[oldhippy]

French carriage timepiece around 1870, this is an 8 day with cylinder platform escapement. As you have removed the platform the mainspring has no power. I see the barrel has a punch mark which indicates that the cap can be put back on in the same place. The best way to remove the cap is to hit the arbor, I always used a box wood mallet because you don't want to leave marks, so use something that doesn't mark. You will need a clock mainspring winder to remove the spring, if you remove it by hand then you should replace it with a new spring as the old one will be damaged. 

If you need any more advice just ask. 

[Endeavor]

Thanks, that worked really well !

I just banged the winding part of the arbor a few times on my cutting-mat and the cap popped off.

The arbor was soaked in oil, so I decided to leave the main-spring (most likely pretty "well" oiled as well) in the barrel. All the wheels, escapement and plates are now for an overnight left in the cleaning fluid. Tomorrow the continuation

About 1870's ...... hmmm, not bad ! Wondering if any quartz movement would survive 150 years .... ? Probably by then batteries are for environmental reasons prohibited

Edited March 22, 2021 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

With all the parts cleaned the assembly could begin.

Inspecting all the pivot holes and the escapement, I don't get the impression that the clock has run a lot. The pivot holes a nice round and (to me) the cylinder & escape-wheel look to be in a good shape as well;

In order to oil the cap-stone the balance wheel & hairspring had to be removed from the bridge;

I replaced the balance wheel & hairspring and "pinned" (a small copper wedge-pin) the hairspring back in it's original position.

Completely assembled, with only a small amount of tension in the main-spring I can't say that the escapement runs smooth. Started the balance wheel with a peg-wood, it makes a few ticks and stops. Even though with the hairspring "pinned" as it was, I wonder whether that was correct in the first place?

@oldhippy or any other forum member; Could you please enlighten me on what the position / alignment of the cylinder (in rest) compared to the center-line of the escape-wheel should be?

Hope to hear

 

[oldhippy]

Aren't you going to polish all the brass parts. 

Have you checked all the teeth on the contrate wheel that is the wheel that connects into the escape wheel. You might have the platform out of line, you also have an adjustable depth screw for the contrate wheel on the back plate. This is the part marked in red.

[Endeavor]

No, I'm not going to polish the brass parts. I know they have in the UK Horolene. For years CousinsUK was not allowed to ship it overseas. Now they are allowed, but with Britain out of the EU the EU Mafia authorities penalizes everybody heavily who does any business with the UK. Above the 80DKK (£9.25) and I'll get hit with £21 registration fee + import-duty; that is as a starter !! Now, each time I order from CousinsUK, it can only be small parts or split orders to stay below the £9.25 per order, but obviously pay the multiple postage extra. Above the £9.25 and I've to source the items somewhere else, against higher cost ! 

So for now I'll leave the brass "as is", but thoroughly cleaned.

I adjusted the platform already and there is only a tiny axial play in the contrate wheel shaft. Please remember that on top of my post I mentioned already that the clock wasn't running great. If the opening of the cylinder is "out of line", that may explain a lot(?) My question remains; what is the correct cylinder alignment compared to the center-line of the escape-wheel ? It would be very nice to know that

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Endeavor

[VWatchie]

Well done @Endeavor and I shall follow this with great interest. It's a very beautiful time piece! I'm happy you didn't try to take that mainspring out of the barrel. Having an eight day power reserve I guess it could have taken your head off!

[oldhippy]

Have a look at this it tells you all you need to know. Just click on it. 

[Endeavor]

Thank you very much !

I'll check it all out tomorrow and report back ....

[transporter]

15 hours ago, Endeavor said:

No, I'm not going to polish the brass parts. I know they have in the UK Horolene. For years CousinsUK was not allowed to ship it overseas. Now they are allowed, but with Britain out of the EU the EU Mafia authorities penalizes everybody heavily who does any business with the UK. Above the 80DKK (£9.25) and I'll get hit with £21 registration fee + import-duty; that is as a starter !! Now, each time I order from CousinsUK, it can only be small parts or split orders to stay below the £9.25 per order, but obviously pay the multiple postage extra. Above the £9.25 and I've to source the items somewhere else, against higher cost ! 

So for now I'll leave the brass "as is", but thoroughly cleaned.

I adjusted the platform already and there is only a tiny axial play in the contrate wheel shaft. Please remember that on top of my post I mentioned already that the clock wasn't running great. If the opening of the cylinder is "out of line", that may explain a lot(?) My question remains; what is the correct cylinder alignment compared to the center-line of the escape-wheel ? It would be very nice to know that

 

Hello mate, nice little clock that, as for cleaning you do know that you can use Brasso ( liquid form ) and rinse with lighter fluid to get the plates spotless and shining the same way that horolene does, still have to peg out the pivot holes but it works great

[Endeavor]

Indeed, the cylinder was out of beat, that's to say outside of the 3 markers. Un-pinned the hairspring and turned the balance wheel till I ran out of hairspring, which coincidentally positioned the little balance wheel pin pretty much in the center. Sorry for the crappy pictures ....

After a slight adjustment to the platform, it started ticking happily on a slight main spring tension

However, I'm not home yet. The second coil is touching and rubbing the underside of the regulator boot. It pushes the otherwise seemingly nicely horizontally positioned hairspring down. It's still a bit hard to see on the best picture I could take;

I'm not 100% sure what's going on?

The possibilities I was thinking of are either something is up with the position / angle of the regulator or the hairspring coils are "bigger" than they supposed be and the hairspring coils have to be manipulated making the sum of the coils or perhaps better said; the total diameter of the hairspring smaller?

If I were to manipulate the hairspring to make the total diameter of the coils smaller, do I get myself into (much) deeper trouble or is that an option to consider?

Bending any part of the regulator arm seems to me a very daunting / possibly "fatal" proposition.

Any idea's / suggestions are very welcome

Edited March 24, 2021 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

14 minutes ago, transporter said:

Hello mate, nice little clock that, as for cleaning you do know that you can use Brasso ( liquid form ) and rinse with lighter fluid to get the plates spotless and shining the same way that horolene does, still have to peg out the pivot holes but it works great

Yes, the plates were soaked overnight in Zippo lighter fluid. I do know Brasso as well, but I decided to leave the cosmetics of the movement the same. The outer-case may get a Brasso treatment. Perhaps some don't agree with one and not the other

[oldhippy]

You will need to bend the hairspring so the coils don't touch each other and away from the boot, be careful with that hairspring as its old and it will break.  

[transporter]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

You will need to bend the hairspring so the coils don't touch each other and away from the boot, be careful with that hairspring as its old and it will break.  

Could it also possibly where the hairspring is pinned it has not sat correctly in the hole? I’ve had it before where I’ve pinned and the hairspring has twisted slightly when the pin was pushed in. Admittedly it did tip all the coils up on one side, but could be worth a closer look, what do think?

[oldhippy]

Where you pin the hairspring can make a big difference if the hairspring is uneven or not sitting correctly in the hole as soon as you go to pin it it will be forced to bend out of shape. To much manipulation and that hairspring will break, they are not like modern ones of today. Age plays a big part on this type of repair. 

[Endeavor]

Yes, I kept an eye on how the spring was pinned and noticed the potential pinning problems. Studying the hairspring; this kink seems already to be one part of the problem. We'll carefully start with this one ........

Edited March 24, 2021 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

That's a good place to start.

[watchweasol]

This animated Video gives a good description of the cylinder and how it operates.

[KarlvonKoln]

I will follow along also.  This is a pretty little clock, and interesting movement. 

[Endeavor]

Thanks all for your valuable input

So far the manipulation of the hairspring went fine. I fine tuned the end a bit more after I took the picture, but all the coils are now nicely concentric. Next to the obvious kink, the very first coil, coming out of the collet, the hairspring was not bend enough, meaning that the very first coil touched the collet on the opposite side (backside). That has been corrected as well.

When mounted, looking at the horizontal plane, it seems that the hairspring collet sits slightly lower than the tip of the boot. This creates a kind of funnel shape, looking from the outside of the hairspring to the inside.

Beside this, what seems more problematic and which I tried to correct a few times but without suc6, is that the 2nd outer-coil touches, or better sits against, the tip of the boot. Currently, with all the coils nicely concentric, I don't know how to manipulate the spring in order to solve that problem.

Which the risk of braking the hairspring in mind (which would in my mind be the end of this clock), would taking some off the rather excessive lengthy boot-tip acceptable or be the crime of the century?

Any other solutions are very welcome too

Edited March 24, 2021 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

What if you were to raise the hairspring collet a little. What you said about the boot, it's your clock just make sure you leave enough so the hairspring can't slip out.  

[Endeavor]

I decided to do both; to dress the boot-tip and lift the hairspring collet. The end result is not exactly Rolex standard, that's to say;

- One side of the hairspring is still lifted by the boot-tip,

- The hair-spring has not the ideal curvature following the curvature of the regulator pin and therefor

- The hairspring doesn't run freely between the regulator-pin and the boot.

but the balance wheel starts ticking on the minimum main spring tension. That's the good news, but now with the clock ticking other, as Mark loves to say, Gremlins seem to pop up ............

The clock ticks, but the balance wheel speeds up and slows down, speeds up, slows down etc. This seems to me to be a power transfer problem between the main spring barrel and the escapement. Whether it can be solved by manipulating the platform? Tomorrow I'll continue hunting for the other Gremlin(s) .......

Edited March 24, 2021 by Endeavor

[rodabod]

Have you checked the balance end shake.... and is there any possibility that the lower pivot is worn / overly polished, or the lower stone has been lowered/polished. This would cause the balance and hairspring to lower, but the boot would still remain in the same position.  
 

One way to check this is to inspect how the balance wheel interacts with the escape wheel with respect to alignment in the plane of the balance staff (if that makes sense).