Epilame / Fixodrop

[Georgie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU0_Vaocb1U  A 1970s Seiko 6119C Automatic Watch - SERVICE, RESTORATION & REPAIR, 5th June 2020.

22:33 He says, "and with that done I can fit the pallets and ballence assembly... I do treat the escape wheel and the pallets with eppel..." What? What is it you treat the pallets and escape wheel with? How do you spell that, somebody, please? I've tried googling it, but I don't know how you spell it.

[nickelsilver]

Epilame. The most common one watchmakers use is Fixodrop made by Moebius.

[jdm]

43 minutes ago, Georgie said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU0_Vaocb1U  A 1970s Seiko 6119C Automatic Watch - SERVICE, RESTORATION & REPAIR, 5th June 2020.

just FYI, we have a section here where is considered polite for new  members to introduce themselves. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  As explained by Nicklesilver eplilame/fixodrop is a lubrication aid  heve a read at the attached document for its uses and data sheets.

epilame.html

[B42Woody]

To support what others have written, I was just warned by a professional watchmaker to not treat the chatons as they could rust.

This same watchmaker does not treat the end stones because he feels it's unnecessary but he definitely treats the pallet fork.

[OTH]

For profesional watchmaking I can imagine that this would be a needed item. For a hobbyist is this really a needed solution? Any previous post links would be appreciated.

 

Glad to be here, as a hobbyist this seems like an invaluable resource for help.   

[ifibrin]

I don’t use fixodrop as an amateur hobbyist, tinkering with movements I buy online; I have found good performance in terms of amplitude and rate even without the use of fixodrop. I have to qualify that by mentioning that the movements are stripped apart, cleaned, and put back together with oiling very frequently, and I have no idea about the LONG term performance without fixodrop.

 

If you plan on servicing other people’s watches for a fee, I think fixodrop is highly recommended, since you won’t otherwise be able to ensure good long term performance.

[OTH]

Thanks for that! 

Perhaps one of these days ill invest in some if I do a repair for a client.

Looking into a homemade stearic acid as to import Epilame will prove very expensive

[Paul80]

Given the obscene price asked for commercial Epilames, is there a DIY option ?

Paul

[Paul80]

Just read elsewhere that the fumes from heated Steric Acid makes an effective Epilame, anyone tried that option and also hinted that the same Steric Acid dissolved in Acetone may also work 

Any thoughts on these options.

Paul

[OTH]

Have also come across this through my research. Seems as though that was how they did it in the 60's and 70's...

[clockboy]

In general no it is not essential but most pros use it always, certainly for some parts it is a must. For example when I serviced my Rolex 3135 it worked great for a while but the auto side stopped functioning correctly. I stripped the auto parts re cleaned and treated with “fixodrop” and it has worked perfectly for the last 5 years.

[jdm]

13 hours ago, OTH said:

Any previous post links would be appreciated.

The search box top right works OK for basic searches, for more searching a sentence use Google site search.

BTW, we have a dedicated section where it's considered polite for new members to introduce themselves.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, OTH said:

For profesional watchmaking I can imagine that this would be a needed item. For a hobbyist is this really a needed solution? Any previous post links would be appreciated.

In the factory settings service treating has been used for a long time. The balance jewels are usually treated, the balance staff is treated at least by eta and a sizable part of the rest of the watch depending upon who and when it was manufactured.

Omega for instance now recommends service treating practically everything. In their service center that's what they do and of course the service center they have trillions of dollars to purchase the stuff.

3 hours ago, OTH said:

Looking into a homemade stearic acid as to import Epilame will prove very expensive

 

2 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Just read elsewhere that the fumes from heated Steric Acid makes an effective Epilame, anyone tried that option and also hinted that the same Steric Acid dissolved in Acetone may also work 

Any thoughts on these options.

There is a cleaning machine it's been discussed on this group that is very interesting and clever. Conveniently I can't quite remember the name in any case it used one bath for cleaning like any other cleaning machine. Then it had an area for the rinse that was isopropyl alcohol that was distilled each time. So the machine was not available in the US Supposedly as it is distilling alcohol even if you're not drinking it at least that's the rumor I heard. Then it vaporized stearic acid for the surface treatment.

Somewhere I'd also seen a reference to a patent that applied that the vapor method was much better than the liquid because the coating was much more uniform. But other than this cleaning machine and the reference to the patents I've never seen anything else on vaporizing.

I would assume that typically most hobbyists don't use it either because they don't know what it is or when they find out what it is they have sticker shock at the cost.

 

[OTH]

18 minutes ago, jdm said:

The search box top right works OK for basic searches, for more searching a sentence use Good site search.

BTW, we have a dedicated section where it's considered polite for new members to introduce themselves.

Ill take a look at the intro section, I was not aware of this... Thanks.

[OTH]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

In the factory settings service treating has been used for a long time. The balance jewels are usually treated, the balance staff is treated at least by eta and a sizable part of the rest of the watch depending upon who and when it was manufactured.

Omega for instance now recommends service treating practically everything. In their service center that's what they do and of course the service center they have trillions of dollars to purchase the stuff.

 

There is a cleaning machine it's been discussed on this group that is very interesting and clever. Conveniently I can't quite remember the name in any case it used one bath for cleaning like any other cleaning machine. Then it had an area for the rinse that was isopropyl alcohol that was distilled each time. So the machine was not available in the US Supposedly as it is distilling alcohol even if you're not drinking it at least that's the rumor I heard. Then it vaporized stearic acid for the surface treatment.

Somewhere I'd also seen a reference to a patent that applied that the vapor method was much better than the liquid because the coating was much more uniform. But other than this cleaning machine and the reference to the patents I've never seen anything else on vaporizing.

I would assume that typically most hobbyists don't use it either because they don't know what it is or when they find out what it is they have sticker shock at the cost.

 

You're completely correct about your last statement. Bloody expensive stuff...

[JohnR725]

Finally figured out what the machine is called. You can find a description there is several places online if you can find them that will show the machine I've seen pictures of the inside and somebody on this group has one.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/greiner-ultrason-cleaning-machine-465667345

[jdm]

16 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 I've seen pictures of the inside and somebody on this group has one.

That's what master Nickelsiver and I have. I keep mine dormant, but he uses his to make moonshine, which helps in the cold Swiss winter. In the manual, about the epilaming, it says "anti-spread treatment has become much less necessary with the introduction of modern synthetic oils". That was in the '70, go figure now. I would post a picture, but my language is not fully understood by most members.

[Pip]

As for the cost of epilame, it's obscene but it lasts a while if you look after it. You could also see if there is anyone else in your region who would want to share the cost of buying and splitting some; you don't really need much if you are a not doing this professionally I have found.

[mikepilk]

21 minutes ago, Pip said:

As for the cost of epilame, it's obscene but it lasts a while if you look after it. You could also see if there is anyone else in your region who would want to share the cost of buying and splitting some; you don't really need much if you are a not doing this professionally I have found.

As @clockboy says above, not usually needed for home use, but essential in some situations e.g. reversing wheels on Rolex. I serviced a friends Rolex and needed to buy some. I managed to find someone on ebay selling it by the 5ml bottle. 

That's plenty for occasional use. But keep the top tightly on, it does like to escape !

[OTH]

Good Idea to share the costs with someone.

[nickelsilver]

The original epilame that Moebius sold (Aretol) was stearic acid in some sort of a solvent base. I have a cleaning machine that has a chamber that melts stearic acid and you put the parts in (not in the acid, in the chamber) for 30s or a minute and it deposits a microscopic layer of the fumes. Philippe Dufour told me he uses stearic acid dissolved in alcohol, at a 1:100 ratio but I never found out if that was by weight or volume. I tried to mix some with 99.9% iso alcohol at that ratio by weight and it leaves a visible deposit; as I just use Fixodrop I didn't experiment any further.

 

So for the curious, yes, you can use stearic acid- do a little experimentation with different solvents, and I think less is truly more on the ratio- it just has to be like a molecule thick layer.

 

Ah- just saw JDM's post- hahaha. I would't make moonshine in my machine, but an old guy at Greiner told me many folks did.

Edited November 23, 2021 by nickelsilver

[HectorLooi]

I've been thinking of experimenting with fingerprint repellent coatings meant for phone screens. If it repels fingerprint oils, that means it is oleophobic, which is what we want. 

I tried a nano coating liquid screen protector from AliExpress on my phone, but it doesn't seem to work. The instructions say to leave it for 8 hours to dry, but seriously, who can go without his phone for 8 hours! 

[watchweasol]

I have dug up the web site https://www.surfactis.com/en/industrial-applications/watch-industry/     which gives an explanation of its us in the watch industry.  I also found out that Stearic acid dissolves readily in Ethanol,  more readily than Acetone.    Its a common fatty acid used in the soap/cosmetic industry. 

[OTH]

I have too read about dissolving the stearic acid in an alcohol. It would only make sense to then heat the solution to deposit the layer on the parts. I wouldnt venture just "painting" it on the necessary parts as if I am not mistaken it could dissolve the shellac on the pallet fork jewels? Going to be doing some testing through December. Will share what I find out, fortunate enough to have found raw stearic granules.