My First Staking Set Advice

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, Plato said:

Aren't punches a standard diameter, 4.7mm if I remember correctly? New Bergeon punches fit my old Boley, perhaps the K&D too?

I have four staking sets (not counting the Seitz) and all of the punches seem to interchange.  I have nothing modern, so cannot say about that, but my suspicion is that you are correct.

[jdm]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I have as many staking sets as I do lathes.  Gotta find a good psychiatrist.

I think you need to get more familiar with the Ebay seller section. Once you have refurbished and made ready an item, sell for a fair price. Even if you don't need the (small) profit that will give you satisfaction and reputation. The buyer will be grateful and may even join our forum.

[Plato]

9 minutes ago, jdm said:

It is not a fixed standard at least it has not always been. And I doubt that American made tools use metric sizes.

4.7mm is about 3/16 inch, it might be worth investigating. 

[Plato]

11 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

my suspicion is that you are correct.

First time for everything!! 

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, Plato said:

4.7mm is about 3/16 inch, it might be worth investigating. 

Yes that should be it. Now I remember, It's the jewelling tools that used one size first then moved to a larger one.

[LittleWatchShop]

53 minutes ago, jdm said:

I think you need to get more familiar with the Ebay seller section. Once you have refurbished and made ready an item, sell for a fair price. Even if you don't need the (small) profit that will give you satisfaction and reputation. The buyer will be grateful and may even join our forum.

LOL...I am.  In fact, today I sold a Miyota 6m55 quartz movement.  I bought a bunch of stuff from a junk dealer (for lack of a better term).  He had picked up a bunch of random stuff from a jewelry store that was downsizing.  I got a bunch of older quartz movements.  Been selling them one-by-one.  Not in it for the money...just the satisfaction of making the deal.

All of my staking sets except the little giant came from my dad.  Not gonna sell those.  I may sell the little giant...but it is so pretty.  dunno

[Plato]

@Stymied any chance you could measure the diameter of your punches? If they are a standard size then getting your kit fully equipped should be quite easy, and inexpensive. 

[Plato]

12 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Not in it for the money...just the satisfaction of making the deal.

Any extra cash made can be invested in new tools or watches which is a bonus for us all. 

[nickelsilver]

4 hours ago, Plato said:

Aren't punches a standard diameter, 4.7mm if I remember correctly? New Bergeon punches fit my old Boley, perhaps the K&D too? 

 

2 hours ago, jdm said:

It is not a fixed standard at least it has not always been. And I doubt that American made tools use metric sizes.

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, and 4mm (bottom side) stumps. I don't know where this norm developed, but 3/16" is within a few hundredths of a mm of 4.7, and my guess is the Yanks originated it. I use K&D stakes in my Star tool, no problem.

 

I've seen Boley staking tools that had 5mm stumps (centering diameter)but not all, and Horia used to make staking tools with 5mm punches, which makes sense- but they don't make them anymore.

 

I keep 4.7mm steel on hand for making custom punches.

[LittleWatchShop]

16 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I keep 4.7mm steel on hand for making custom punches.

OF COURSE YOU DO!  You are the YODA of watchmaking.

[jdm]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:04 AM, nickelsilver said:

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, and 4mm (bottom side) stumps.

I've realized why I wrote that not all are the same size, because mine is not. Stakes are 4.5mm but stumps (of which I have none ATM) are 4mm. The numbering is also different from Boley. I took the chance to reorder the set and make a labelling chart.

[nickelsilver]

There are definitely exceptions! But the K&D, Levin, Marshall, Star, Bergeon, Seitz, Favorite, and certainly others are all 4.7mm. You're lucky that at least it's a round dimension, it is generally easier to source steel in whole and half mm sizes than odd diameters like 4.7mm.

 

I'm still quite sure that it was from the American companies that the 4.7 standard arose, being darn close to 3/16". What's funny is the 8mm collet that has been adapted in some form or another by makers around the world came from the American Watch Tool company, who also originated the 20mm collet used by Schaublin in their 102 lathes and other machines. Such a weird mix of metric and inch back then. And now!

[Stymied]

On 12/12/2021 at 5:29 AM, nickelsilver said:

There are definitely exceptions! But the K&D, Levin, Marshall, Star, Bergeon, Seitz, Favorite, and certainly others are all 4.7mm. You're lucky that at least it's a round dimension, it is generally easier to source steel in whole and half mm sizes than odd diameters like 4.7mm.

 

I'm still quite sure that it was from the American companies that the 4.7 standard arose, being darn close to 3/16". What's funny is the 8mm collet that has been adapted in some form or another by makers around the world came from the American Watch Tool company, who also originated the 20mm collet used by Schaublin in their 102 lathes and other machines. Such a weird mix of metric and inch back then. And now!

It didn't take me long to appreciate how varied things are in watchmaking. Certainly that drives my fantasies about being able to machine old punches should I need something special. There is a machinist (see: tubelcain) on YT that I have taken to following in the hopes of incorporating some of his gross skills to the miniature world of watchmaking. I pretty much take my truths wherever I find them. 

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[jdm]

7 minutes ago, Stymied said:

There is a machinist (see: tubelcain) on YT that I have taken to following in the hopes of incorporating some of his gross skills to the miniature world of watchmaking.

Tubalcain (mrpete222) is great and pleasant to follow but if one is interested in almost maniacal precision machining of smaller parts (yet not watchmaking) then can't miss learning from Joe Pieczynski.

[Stymied]

6 hours ago, jdm said:

Tubalcain (mrpete222) is great and pleasant to follow but if one is interested in almost maniacal precision machining of smaller parts (yet not watchmaking) then can't miss learning from Joe Pieczynski.

Much appreciated. I'll certainly check him out. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Stymied]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:18 PM, SuspectDevice said:

Could anyone tell me about this staking set?

I'm considering it for a beginner. I'm assuming new Bergeon punches will fit it if I have to replace something.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203358492156?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Looks identical to what I have save the front two rows are all empty and there are a few of the stakes missing in the upper 72 positions. I recently organized my set and was struck by how much variance there was. Originally a K&D set there were about 7 or 8 Boley tools which didn't seem to fit in anywhere. Also I found that the tools with the capital S prefix follow a different system than the tools with an X suffix. Now that I have the remaining set organized according to a standard (see: K&D Table of Punches)--and primarily am using the X variety, I have a starting point upon which to build. I might even try making a tool out of left-overs should my skills get to that point.

BTW: I also have a very complete set of C&E Marshall stakes but need to find something comparable to the K&D literature I have. So far no luck.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Stymied]

@LittleWatchShop

In your own experience are particular staking tools at greater risk for damage than others. What I mean is, absent gross misuse or abuse, are particular tools prone to chipping, breakage or marring moreso than others?

Are any particularly difficult to replace? Just wondering out loud.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[GuyMontag]

Looking at forum posts here and elsewhere I got the idea that a good staking set would go for around $150-$350 depending on condition and how complete the set is. I've noticed some recent ebay auctions (eg, 1, 2, 3, 4) where sets are going for $800 to  $1,200K. Is it that a set that is in very nice condition and more or less complete demands that kind of money, or is that just a variation when looking at one point in time?

[LittleWatchShop]

There are a wide variety of sets that were made.  Some small with just a few stakes and stumps (like the Marshall Little Giant I posted about somewhere on the forum), and those you linked to above.  I have seen staking sets go for less than $350 as noted in your post.  But it is a matter of size, completeness, and condition.

[oldhippy]

The condition and how complete the set is that is the thing to look out for. No point having a set where the stakes are broken, or the holder for the stakes has taken a hammering and it’s out of line. A nice box also plays its part. Some stakes get blocked and you cannot remove what has blocked them. So before you buy ask the seller about what he or she is selling.

[Levine98]

Hi,

New member here (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/21245-newbie-from-richmond-va/).

I just purchased a vintage "FAVORITE STAKING/RIVETING TOOL SET 100 small tools" off eBay so I can go a little deeper into pocket watch repair/restoration than just salvaging/swapping parts from movements. Wasn't cheap to be sure, but based on the asking prices I'm seeing for complete sets on eBay it looks like I did OK for a quality set in good condition.

Anyhow, one of the questions I have is regards removing old balance staffs and replacing them. I'm working on a couple of Elgin 16s Grade 291s right now and all three movements require balance staff replacement.

Does the striking set come equipped with the right stakes to do this out of the box? Or do I need to purchase an additional tool such as the K & D No. 50 Balance Staff Remover?

Thanks in advance for any info--so glad I found this thread, already answered several questions I thought I was needing to post about staking sets. 

Levine98

Richmond, VA

[oldhippy]

From what I can see it looks a nice set all in very good condition. I can't see a balance staff remover punch. Normally I would remove the old staff from the balance wheel in my watchmakers lathe with a graver to remove the rivet.  

[Levine98]

I don't have a lathe, so I'm expecting to have to use the staking set tools for this purpose.

I don't actually have the set in hand yet (coming this week), but upon closer inspection of the picture I'm wondering if the item (circled) isn't in fact a K&D #50?

[oldhippy]

It looks like it. 

[Levine98]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

From what I can see it looks a nice set all in very good condition. I can't see a balance staff remover punch. Normally I would remove the old staff from the balance wheel in my watchmakers lathe with a graver to remove the rivet.  

So after some more reading I'm starting to suspect that the only way to safely remove a damaged balance staff is to first remove the rivet using a lathe. Is this in fact the only proper way to get the staff out without damaging the balance wheel?