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My First Staking Set Advice


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1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I have the Helios set which I think is much like the k&d sets in operation. The locking knob only moves 180 degrees too. The locking mechanism is a cam system, rotating the knob clockwise 180 releases the table to rotate, fully anticlockwise locks the table.

 

Tom

So this is what's concerning me. the knob moves the full 180 degrees yet it seems to have no effect on the table whatsoever, doesn't budge a mm. 

This makes me afraid that the cam inside is broken or something. I can't really think fo what would have it not engage whatsoever with such a simple design beyond that...

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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

So this is what's concerning me. the knob moves the full 180 degrees yet it seems to have no effect on the table whatsoever, doesn't budge a mm. 

This makes me afraid that the cam inside is broken or something. I can't really think fo what would have it not engage whatsoever with such a simple design beyond that...

If the locking knob is moving I would think the cam is ok, it is pretty sturdy. I would think that it would be more likely that the axle in the centre of the table is seized. The screw that is stuck will be what is keeping the locking mechanism in the stand, I would look at getting that out so your earlier thought about getting penetrating oil is a good one. Once that screw is out you should be able to just pull out the locking cam and locking knob easily.

 

Tom

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50 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

If the locking knob is moving I would think the cam is ok, it is pretty sturdy.

I was thinking the same; it's study stuff and won't break that easy, by hand that is. I would have been more worried if the knob could turn 360 degrees. Since the knob can turn only 180 degrees means that there is resistance, therefor I'd assume too that the shaft & cam are okay.

The center-shaft is a precise fit and with some debris or rust in between, it could easily seize up.

Edited by Endeavor
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I suspect that the central shaft which clamps the table is seized, preventing the locking cam from doing anything. You might be able to free that up with a sharp tap from above using a brass drift so that you don't mark anything, and that should sort it out although if it were mine I would strip the frame down completely, clean it up and re-lube it.

 

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15 minutes ago, Marc said:

if it were mine I would strip the frame down completely, clean it up and re-lube it.

For sure, it needs a total strip, clean & check. Since I took my Boley apart this morning, I'm currently in the process to give everything, the tool & punches, a coating / polish with Renaissance micro-crystalline wax. ( @tomh207 thanks for your tip)

BTW, @Birbdad, here you can read my first staking-set saga. Perhaps it cheers you up that your set isn't that bad?

 

Edited by Endeavor
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That it turns through an arc suggests an eccentric for sure. On many things that use an eccentric to clamp there is an adjustment; typically the part with the radial hole can either turn in relation to the piece getting clamped (the table here), screwing in or out, or, there will be a screw in the end of the shaft that the eccentric actually works on that can be screwed in or out. Once you get it apart it should be evident.

 

This is the eccentric clamp from my big lathe, with a screw for adjusting.

 

 

20230401_141112.jpg

 

The second pic is from my small lathe, the "t" section is threaded and can screw closer or further from the hole, and is locked with an axial set screw.

20230401_141202.jpg

 

These are eccentrics from lathes but the concept is the same. Not all eccentric setups have adjustment though; there you have to get creative...

Edited by nickelsilver
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Ok. I got some answers and some more questions and it looks like my final option is to start hitting things with hammers so hopefully somebody who has one of these can chime in before i do something stupid haha. 

I got every screw that can come out out (Wd 40's brand penetrating oil is amazing stuff btw. Wow.) Everything looks fine, there is indeed a camming system. Weird thing is though with everything out the top STILL doesn't come off and i'm not entirely sure what holds it on. 

PXL_20230402_094810554.thumb.jpg.3e6cf606e586fd3a97bf1a1b3093202d.jpg 

I have no idea how this damn thing is constructed. If the cam pushes up on the metal column and that locks in the plate i have no idea how it's supposed to come apart. There is now a big hole in the bottom with a metal surface above that maybe needs to be tapped on with a punch or something to unseize that metal column? I really don't know. 

I know people here have these. Somebody else must have taken one apart.
PXL_20230402_094927021.thumb.jpg.1957200eb1df38d5e8a0be141e13083d.jpg

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Looking at the position of the big knob, the center shaft isn't that long and my suspicion is, like with my Boley and the Helios, that the center shaft comes out on the top. You could try to tap the center shaft from the bottom upwards, using a brass punch to avoid any damage. As mentioned before, it's a precise fit and a little rust may prevent the shaft from moving. Easy does it.

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1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

Looking at the position of the big knob, the center shaft isn't that long and my suspicion is, like with my Boley and the Helios, that the center shaft comes out on the top. You could try to tap the center shaft from the bottom upwards, using a brass punch to avoid any damage. As mentioned before, it's a precise fit and a little rust may prevent the shaft from moving. Easy does it.

I would first fill the hole with penetrating oil and let it sit for a day.  Then tap it out as Endeavor said

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1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

Looking at the position of the big knob, the center shaft isn't that long and my suspicion is, like with my Boley and the Helios, that the center shaft comes out on the top. You could try to tap the center shaft from the bottom upwards, using a brass punch to avoid any damage. As mentioned before, it's a precise fit and a little rust may prevent the shaft from moving. Easy does it.

 

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

Looking at the position of the big knob, the center shaft isn't that long and my suspicion is, like with my Boley and the Helios, that the center shaft comes out on the top. You could try to tap the center shaft from the bottom upwards, using a brass punch to avoid any damage. As mentioned before, it's a precise fit and a little rust may prevent the shaft from moving. Easy does it.

Sounds good. I may have some old bras punches here somewhere..

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On 3/31/2023 at 10:00 PM, Birbdad said:

Heya So the staking set arrived. The punches short of not having a full set and the thing itself appear to be in great condition and just need a bit of derusting. My concern however is that there's a good bit of play in the table on the thing yet the knob on the back does nothing and rotates a little less than 180 degrees.  I have a feeling this thing is so old there's probably stuff rusted and seized up on it and it just needs to be taken apart and derusted and oiled up in a few spots.  Here's a vid of the wobble on the table. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7k86sh2mcv0vdfo/PXL_20230401_024922606.mp4?dl=0 Turning the knob doesn't seem to do much of anything.  People more familiar with this, your input would be appreciated as i gotta leave this guy feedback or decide whether there's soemthing wrong with the thing. I assume it's an old tool that needs a little TLC.

image.thumb.png.6fcbf87998b32fd7d25692645f62d58c.png
 

image.thumb.png.7bfaecd165f6a95a950123c74e5dfc86.png

There's these two screws on the bottom, I assume i need to adjust these to deal with the table play and disassembly. I tried the larger one and it is totally and uttelry seized up. Guess i'll have to get some penetrating oil. 

One neat little detail is that this came with the original booklet! It has a list of all the punches and the punches are all labeled so it should be real easy to complete this set and keep an eye out for deals on ebay.  
image.thumb.png.930ffdb60b9371392f7713e4e4267448.png
 

Ok this is wild. It came packaged with crumpled up newspaper, really old from  chicago. 
Look at the headline on the day this paper was printed. Not watch related but very interesting.
image.thumb.png.f2629966a9e4b55d2ce3036746a6df4b.png

 

Can you post the other pages of that manual that came with your tool.

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K so that was so stuck it was pretty nuts. I had to whack the crap out of it but it eventually came out. and i didn't damage anything but now that i see how it works it's pretty strange and...imprecise? The cam from the knob apparently pulls the center post down which is what locks it into place. What i dont' get is that the way it's constructed the center post is quite a bit narrower than the table top and you would have to manually get the tabletop hole to line up with the center of the punch when you lock it down. 
I assumed these were precision tools and the tabletop hole would always be centered under the neck. Is there supposed to be like 1mm or more of play?

image.thumb.png.ba7ae2ae94eb6204a4d352872e48ce37.png
ISn't the hole in the tf

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Some staking tools are set up so the table holes are precisely on a circle concentric with the center hole, and the clamp shaft is a snug fit. The top of the tool that holds the punches has an insert with an eccentric hole for the punches; this is turned until the hole is on center with the table holes and locked in place. When centering a hole in the plate there is just one adjustment, turning the plate until the desired hole lines up with the centering punch.

 

Other tools have a hole for the punches that is not adjustable. Here typically the table can "float", so that the desired table hole can be aligned with the centering punch.

 

Both types are made that way to account for manufacturing tolerances that can stack up ending with a table that simply doesn't align with the punch guide. So yours is normal, the seemingly excess freedom is normal. If you find there's no adjustment for the clamp interaction with the cam lever, you can put thin shim stock under the head of the clamp where it comes down on the table. A little goes a long way.

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24 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Some staking tools are set up so the table holes are precisely on a circle concentric with the center hole, and the clamp shaft is a snug fit. The top of the tool that holds the punches has an insert with an eccentric hole for the punches; this is turned until the hole is on center with the table holes and locked in place. When centering a hole in the plate there is just one adjustment, turning the plate until the desired hole lines up with the centering punch.

 

Other tools have a hole for the punches that is not adjustable. Here typically the table can "float", so that the desired table hole can be aligned with the centering punch.

 

Both types are made that way to account for manufacturing tolerances that can stack up ending with a table that simply doesn't align with the punch guide. So yours is normal, the seemingly excess freedom is normal. If you find there's no adjustment for the clamp interaction with the cam lever, you can put thin shim stock under the head of the clamp where it comes down on the table. A little goes a long way.

Ok. yeah looking at other examples this must be a "floating table" type and the top is an off center hole. That makes sense. 
EDIT: For posterity's sake here's the last bit. Kinda interesting design. There's this flat spring in the top insert so when it's inserted into the top that wire's middle protrudes into the shaft the stake goes into acting to center it and keep it in the correct spot. Pretty neat. imo

image.thumb.png.11490744956e68ec3186c84674bd4863.png

 

Edited by Birbdad
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Well, you got the center-shaft out; that's good news 🙂

Not only that, but all seems as it should. As Nickelsilver mentioned already, my Boley has also a "floating"-table and the selected hole has to be lined up with a center-punch, before tightening the big-knob. There should be a centering-punch one among your punchers, which is there for this specific reason.

Now you can clean the set up and make it smooth to operate. Your eBay purchase may become a success after al  😉

Congrats !

Edited by Endeavor
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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

I assumed these were precision tools and the tabletop hole would always be centered under the neck. Is there supposed to be like 1mm or more of play?

As Nickelsilver and Endeavor said...your staking tool will operate as designed.  You are ready to replace a staff!!!

 

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11 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Well, you got the center-shaft out; that's good news 🙂

Not only that, but all seems as it should. As Nickelsilver mentioned already, my Boley has also a "floating"-table and the selected hole has to be lined up with a center-punch, before tightening the big-knob. There should be a centering-punch one among your punchers, which is there for this specific reason.

Now you can clean the set up and make it smooth to operate. Your eBay purchase may become a success after al  😉

Congrats !

yeah! I'm excited! I really hardly know what most people even use them for other than they're used constantly for all sorts of things. Kinda makes me want to look over some of my junk movements and see if there's any worn out arbor holes that could be tightened up with a little staking. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

As Nickelsilver and Endeavor said...your staking tool will operate as designed.  You are ready to replace a staff!!!

 

All i need to do now is hurry up and get into swiss stuff cuz i don't think any of the seiko stuff i work with now has any part of the balance disassemble-able or replacable.  But when the time comes, the parts for the balance staff remover are all present with this set which is good to know.

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9 hours ago, Endeavor said:

See video from the 14:30 min. mark where he explains about the floating table. You can also watch both his video's to see how he reduces hole sizes .....

 

I got this in  a playlist to watch this week! Love this channel.

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3 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Just come across this on ebay.  Do any of you know the brand.  I'm not buying, just curious. £475 with free postage. 

Screenshot_20230404_113132_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20230404_113127_eBay.jpg

The reference that might be worth looking at is not dreadnought but GEM. I think I have seen some references to them and I think maybe Japanese? The box style definitely looks Japanese sets that I have seen, like MKS. 
 

Tom

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