Locked escape wheel.

[fjseal]

Working on a Vostok 2414, I fitted a new escape  wheel and pallet fork. When I activate the balance wheel, the escape wheel moves but does not advance. In the picture, the position of the pallet pin is with the fork as far as it will go against the banking. If I filed a small amount off the solid banking, I think it would solve the problem. Is this permissible practice, and has anyone encountered this before. I don't think the watch is far enough out of beat to cause this, also the same thing happens when tested with some wind on the mainspring before the balance is fitted; the escape wheel will not advance. I hope the pictures are clear enough. Thanks.

Frank.

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by fjseal
Add another picture.

[ricardopalamino]

Is the pallet fork installed right side up ? Usually the pallet jewel on the longer arm is to the left . Is the impulse jewel on the balance between the fork fingers ? With out the balance installed you should be able to tickle one of the gears to see the escape wheel and pallet fork engage and move the pallet fork left and right . I don't think that I would file the the solid banking to solve the issue .

[Endeavor]

Not knowing a whole lot about watches; but I can't see the guard-pin (#4) on your pictures? To my humble mind this one should be visible from the side the picture is taken from. Unless the 2414 pallet hasn't got a guard pin or the pallet is the wrong way around like ricardopalamino suggested??

Picture just for illustration of the parts / names, I know it's not Swiss

 

 

 

[fjseal]

Thank you for your replies; Endeavor,  the guard pin is there. On another website there is a walkthrough of this movement, and the pin is facing down. Because of the different length of the pallet fork pivots I think it is impossible to fit it the wrong way up. The other thought that ocurred to me was that the pallet pin may be set too far out. Incidentally, the new fork came with a new escape wheel.

Ricardo, the escape wheel does not advance even without the balance fitted, and tested as you suggest.

[Cad101]

Have you tried it with the new escape wheel provided with the new fork.

[jdm]

29 minutes ago, Cad101 said:

Have you tried it with the new escape wheel provided with the new fork.

OP said: "I fitted a new escape wheel and pallet fork". Seems like one of these is faulty.

[Cad101]

So he did sorry didn't read it right.

[rogart63]

Sounds like you haven't got the balance wheel in the right position? Loosening the bridge screw and rotate the wheel until it engage with the pallet fork. The jewels hits the outside of the fork instead of sitting inside it. Happens once in a while for me at least.  

[fjseal]

Thanks rogart. This is obviously the thing I have to double-check, even though it looks okay at the moment.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, rogart63 said:

Sounds like you haven't got the balance wheel in the right position? Loosening the bridge screw and rotate the wheel until it engage with the pallet fork. The jewels hits the outside of the fork instead of sitting inside it. Happens once in a while for me at least.  

But as the OP mentioned above, the escape wheel does not advance even with balance removed and the tip is moved manually. That is a fundamental test.

[rogart63]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

But as the OP mentioned above, the escape wheel does not advance even with balance removed and the tip is moved manually. That is a fundamental test.

Ooops. Then there must be some other problem?  Remove the pallet fork and work his way backwards. 

[Geo]

2 hours ago, rogart63 said:

Remove the pallet fork and work his way backwards. 

Wing mirrors required! 

[Folkvisor]

It's very easy to put in a pallet lever upside down thus making it impossible for it to interact with the escape wheel properly. 

Don't ask me how I know this.

Dave

[jdm]

It's very easy to put in a pallet lever upside down thus making it impossible for it to interact with the escape wheel properly. 

Don't ask me how I know this.

Dave

Not sure about Russian movements, but it's impossible with the Si

[jdm]

Not sure about Russian movements, but it's impossible with the Si

Sorry. With Seiko.

[oldhippy]

What ever you do don't touch the banking pins because if you do you will end up with all sorts of trouble.  The first thing I would do is release all the power, remove the pallets, put a little power on and see if the train is free, make sure all the train  has good endshake, inspect the pallets make sure the pallet stones are are set firm and pallet jewels are ok, put pallets in making sure the pallet bridge is fixed, add a little power and make sure the pallets are free up and down and have good endshake, now touch the pallets with your tweezers and see if the escape wheel will escape. Try that first and let me know. 

[ricardopalamino]

Good explanation oldhippy .....

[ricardopalamino]

8 hours ago, Geo said:

Wing mirrors required! 

Aloha Geo, not sure if what you said is corny in a funny kind of way , or funny in a corny kind of way..

[Folkvisor]

9 hours ago, jdm said:

Sorry. With Seiko.

Ah, so no silicon then? Was wondering...

I know nought about Russian watches except that a woman I met who was from Russia had been saving for a car and because of the devaluation of the Rouble she was only able to buy a Russian-made watch.

[fjseal]

Update:

Thanks for your advice oldhippy. I have followed your procedure...I am happy that the wheel train is functioning perfectly, no binding of obstruction. It's almost as if the escape pallet pin is set a little too far out of the pallet fork. The mainspring is new, but the fork does not 'flick' confidently like you would expect it to. I will attach a photo of the new  pallet fork so you can judge if it looks normal to you. How much 'endshake' should the pallets have?

[rogart63]

Looked at one 2614 i had in the drawer. The left jewel  sits very far out on that to.  So i don't think that is the problem? 

[ramrod]

i might suggest putting one or the other of the old parts back in and try it. try the new pallet with the old escape wheel and vise versa. is would seem that one or the other of the new parts is faulty. i know that is a stretch, but it can't hurt to try it.

Edited April 21, 2016 by ramrod

[oldhippy]

To me that pallet stone is set wrong, trying to line it up it looks to me to be out of line. I cant find any info on pallet end shake So touching the pallets when set into the movement the pallets wont escape, have you tried a little oil on the pallet stones, then oil the balance pivots and fit not forgetting the shim that goes under the balance cock and screw tight making sure the balance staff is set in the jewels.

Here are two pictures I have found with pallets fitted and the pallets stones can be seen clearly that stone is not set in the same position as yours, there for I think yours is at fault and that is the problem. Sorry if you think I've gone all over the place with this but this is something you might come across and is good practice in fault finding.   

[mcass]

I've been working on a Bulova 11blc this week and was having the same issue. On the 3rd attempt I finally noticed that indeed I had the pallet fork upside down.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Folkvisor]

Easy to do!

I am in watch heaven; I got 5 junkers from my watchmaker friend!! Some good names too, Seiko, Lorus, Caravelle, etc...

I just de-cased the Seiko; something I'd never been able to do w/out one of Mark's videos on the subject. 

Back to the bench...

Dave