Cleaning Fluids

[clockboy]

The problem I have found when using Turps/lighter fuel/petrol etc is the fumes. A real problem if your workshop is in your house.

For me after a lot of experiments the L&R solutions are the best in terms of cleaning results & they also have very low fumes.

[mikepilk]

7 hours ago, clockboy said:

The problem I have found when using Turps/lighter fuel/petrol etc is the fumes. A real problem if your workshop is in your house.

For me after a lot of experiments the L&R solutions are the best in terms of cleaning results & they also have very low fumes.

I use lighter fluid in small plastic pots with a lid - just enough to cover the parts, sat in warm water in my (very small) ultrasonic.

I then 'rinse' using isopropanol as naptha leaves an oily residue.

I don't smell any fumes.

[Tmuir]

Fumes is not a problem for me a my cleaner is in my outside workshop.

 

[TheVinylTrain]

Although I'm new to this forum, I've been repairing pocket watches under the guidance of Donald De Carle and various blogs for some time - I have always utilised an ultrasonic cleaner and various solutions produced specifically for use in ultrasonic machines when cleaning components, but I'm beginning to grow tired of my shed reeking of ammonia, as well as the general expense of these solutions, and the often poor results (this is perhaps largely due to it being a very cheap ultrasonic cleaner).

I've decided that it may prove better to stick to the traditional and time-honoured method of using benzine (also known as 'petroleum ether', easily found on a well known internet auction site using those search terms) and various brushes/pith/pegwood - This is covered fairly comprehensively in De Carle's 'Practical Watch Repairing', and allows you to be a little more meticulous (although it's time consuming) in the cleaning of components. 

Will the benzine damage shellac/pallet jewels if exposed too long, or is it relatively safe to use it for brief periods? 

[noirrac1j]

57 minutes ago, TheVinylTrain said:

Although I'm new to this forum, I've been repairing pocket watches under the guidance of Donald De Carle and various blogs for some time - I have always utilised an ultrasonic cleaner and various solutions produced specifically for use in ultrasonic machines when cleaning components, but I'm beginning to grow tired of my shed reeking of ammonia, as well as the general expense of these solutions, and the often poor results (this is perhaps largely due to it being a very cheap ultrasonic cleaner).

I've decided that it may prove better to stick to the traditional and time-honoured method of using benzine (also known as 'petroleum ether', easily found on a well known internet auction site using those search terms) and various brushes/pith/pegwood - This is covered fairly comprehensively in De Carle's 'Practical Watch Repairing', and allows you to be a little more meticulous (although it's time consuming) in the cleaning of components. 

Will the benzine damage shellac/pallet jewels if exposed too long, or is it relatively safe to use it for brief periods? 

I've used naptha for a long time on all types of mechanical watches and have never had a problem with the pallet jewels. The pallet stones should still be cleaned in ultrasonic solution as naptha doesn't dissolve dirt or dried/caked oils. I'n my experience, naptha or VM&P naptha, is best used as a final rinse because it dries quickly and with no residue.

 

J

[rogart63]

Naptha is fine for cleaning pallet forks. 

[jdm]

13 hours ago, TheVinylTrain said:

This is covered fairly comprehensively in De Carle's 'Practical Watch Repairing', and allows you to be a little more meticulous (although it's time consuming) in the cleaning of components. 

Will the benzine damage shellac/pallet jewels if exposed too long, or is it relatively safe to use it for brief periods? 

Or course is is safe, otherwise De Carle and all the other watchmakers of the past and present would not have used and recommended it. There are various threads on the subject already, easy to find using the search box right.

Edited November 24, 2017 by jdm

[mikepilk]

I clean all the parts in naptha in the ultrasonic, as it does not dissolve shellac. I then use isopropanol to remove the oily residue, but for the pallet and balance, I only do a few seconds in the ultrasonic as it does dissolve shellac.

I'll drop an old pallet in some isopropanol in the ultrasonic and time how long it takes to dissolve the shellac.

[mikepilk]

So I did the experiment - a 'cycle' in my small ultrasonic, about 3 mins with the pallet in isopropanol.

As you can see, there's no noticeable loss in shellac.

 

[jdm]

22 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I clean all the parts in naptha in the ultrasonic, as it does not dissolve shellac. I then use isopropanol to remove the oily residue, but for the pallet and balance, I only do a few seconds in the ultrasonic as it does dissolve shellac.

Same here, but for an quicker way, tried rectified benzine (or petroleum), which leaves no residue. Interestingly, I could not find a direct hit or common name for English speaking countries, but is easy to find in mine, where it's even sold in pharmacies, to be used as solvent, or stain remover. Material houses also carry it.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Same here, but for an quicker way, tried rectified benzine (or petroleum), which leaves no residue. Interestingly, I could not find a direct hit or common name for English speaking countries, but is easy to find in mine, where it's even sold in pharmacies, to be used as solvent, or stain remover. Material houses also carry it.

I've never heard of rectified benzine in the UK. I wasn't aware of benzine, only benzene, which is an additive to petrol and carcinogenic, so stuff to keep clear of.

The term Naptha seems to cover all sorts of petroleum distillates. All very confusing.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I've never heard of rectified benzine in the UK. I wasn't aware of benzine, only benzene, which is an additive to petrol and carcinogenic, so stuff to keep clear of.

The term Naptha seems to cover all sorts of petroleum distillates. All very confusing.

Yes, petroleum names are for utter confusion. For the chemist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether In the end we're talking about rectified version of what in Argentina at the pump it's called naptha. Gasoline in the US. Petrol in the UK. Benzine in my EU country. Essence in France.

 

 

[TheVinylTrain]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I've never heard of rectified benzine in the UK. I wasn't aware of benzine, only benzene, which is an additive to petrol and carcinogenic, so stuff to keep clear of.

The term Naptha seems to cover all sorts of petroleum distillates. All very confusing.

Assuming we can post links on this forum, this is what I'm using: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Petroleum-Ether-40-C-60-C-1-Litre-Petroleum-Spirit-Same-Day-Shipment-/141226080247?hash=item20e1baf7f7, since I only repair four or five watches a year (just as a hobby). 

I chose one with a lower boiling point, since my chemist friend tells me that although it's a little more volatile (it's EXTREMELY flammable and should definitely only be used well-ventilated/away from sources of ignition - I even go as far as only using it in natural light), it proves a better solvent. It's frustrating that they attach the label 'petroleum spirit' to the listing, which makes me think of glorified paint thinner, but from my understanding, it's a little more refined (distilled to a greater extent) version of the same thing. 

Although both harmful, definitely best not to confuse it with benzene, haha. 

[jdm]

Plain language article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_benzine

By all means, that is NOT the "lighter fluid" often mentioned.

[noirrac1j]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Plain language article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_benzine

By all means, that is NOT the "lighter fluid" often mentioned.

Correct. Petroleum ether is not lighter fluid. Naptha has CAS Registry Number 8030-30-6.

J

[jdm]

5 minutes ago, noirrac1j said:

Correct. Petroleum ether is not lighter fluid. Naptha has CAS Registry Number 8030-30-6.

Yes, and as per link above, "Petroleoum benzine" has  64742-49-0. The two are very, very similar for our purposes.

[YuriyV]

As I'm aware benzine fumes are toxic. Be careful. I heard benzine killed many watchmakers before.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, YuriyV said:

As I'm aware benzine fumes are toxic. Be careful. I heard benzine killed many watchmakers before.

I think you're confusing petroleum benzine with something else. Benzine is basically car's fuel. Certainly you don't want to inhale it, but it's not particularly toxic either.

Overall toxicity: 1
0: None (or very low); 1: Slight; 2: Moderate; 3: High; 4: Severe

https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/about/governance/committees/chemicalsafety/safetypractices/clip-petroleum-ether.pdf

[mikepilk]

19 hours ago, jdm said:

I think you're confusing petroleum benzine with something else. Benzine is basically car's fuel. Certainly you don't want to inhale it, but it's not particularly toxic either.

Overall toxicity: 1
0: None (or very low); 1: Slight; 2: Moderate; 3: High; 4: Severe

https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/about/governance/committees/chemicalsafety/safetypractices/clip-petroleum-ether.pdf

One confusion is that in the UK, I've never heard of Benzine as petroleum.  But I do know about Benzene. According to Wiki "As benzene is a human carcinogen, most non-industrial applications have been limited".  Petrol cars have a carbon filter on the tank  to remove petrol/benzene fumes. 

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

One confusion is that in the UK, I've never heard of Benzine as petroleum.  But I do know about Benzene. According to Wiki "As benzene is a human carcinogen, most non-industrial applications have been limited".  Petrol cars have a carbon filter on the tank  to remove petrol/benzene fumes. 

The fact that you have not heard a particular word in British English does not means that is not used elsewhere. Look for example at the link above about how many different names this petroleum derivate goes under.

Once again, Benzine and Benzene are two different things.

And, there is no benzene in vehicle fuel. Also there is no filter or seal between the pump nozzle and the thank. So when you pump fuel, a very small amount is dispersed in the air, and absorbed by humans. But it is not dangerously toxic.

[mikepilk]

11 minutes ago, jdm said:

The fact that you have not heard a particular word in British English does not means that is not used elsewhere. Look for example at the link above about how many different names this petroleum derivate goes under.

Once again, Benzine and Benzene are two different things.

And, there is no benzene in vehicle fuel. Also there is no filter or seal between the pump nozzle and the thank. So when you pump fuel, a very small amount is dispersed in the air, and absorbed by humans. But it is not dangerously toxic.

There IS benzene added to petrol in the UK, and "European petrol specifications now contain the same 1% limit on benzene content" (Wiki). There is no safe exposure limit to benzene :i :

 "it is generally considered that the only absolutely safe concentration for benzene is zero".^[62] There is no safe exposure level; even tiny amounts can cause harm". (Wiki)

So the small amounts you inhale when filling the tank, could be harmful. I remember reading about experiments being done to measure the levels of benzene when refuelling.

I drive a diesel :-)

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by mikepilk

[jdm]

19 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

There IS benzene added to petrol in the UK, and "European petrol specifications now contain the same 1% limit on benzene content" (Wiki). 

I stand corrected, there is some. Some document suggest 0.7%, that was in 2003. http://www.ukpia.com/docs/default-source/publication-files/ukpia-benzene-in-petrol.pdf

Now for the good news. There is no benzene in Petroleum ether.
 

Benzine" redirects here. It is not to be confused with Benzene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether

[mikepilk]

11 minutes ago, jdm said:

I stand corrected, there is some. Some document suggest 0.7%, that was in 2003. http://www.ukpia.com/docs/default-source/publication-files/ukpia-benzene-in-petrol.pdf

Now for the good news. There is no benzene in Petroleum ether.
 

Benzine" redirects here. It is not to be confused with Benzene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether

That's the stuff to use then !

I remember the days when we used to almost bath in carbon tetrachloride. I remember watching my friends dad (who had a garage) changing brake pads and blowing the asbestos dust out with an air-line. Surprised I've lasted this long. 

I use large quantities of ethyl alcohol to flush the impurities out of my system 

[AndreiMartin]

Hi guys,

I usually clean my movements by hand with lighter fluid and using a wooden peg in the meantime to scrape off stubborn dirt.

Was wondering if I could use a cheap jewelry ultrasonic cleaning device to clean the parts but I want to know what is your input on this, as some of you are more experienced than me.

I was looking into using ultrasonic cleaning + a popper cleaning liquid and after using the same process but with Rinse 1 and Rinse 2 labeled recipients.

 

Looking forward for your reply and I apologise if this is a repeat post,

 

Regards,

Andrei

 

 

[jguitron]

Hello,

I’m chipping in not as a seasoned watchmaker but as one on my way towards getting there, accumulating experiences and slowly building up a decent shop.

Like anything else, every step of the way can done differently and how much funds and effort you put into is is what you get in results.

There are many US machines of various qualities from $30 to $5000 and more. The cleaning liquids are also important. I’ve heard more negatives han positives about lighting fluid leaving a coat behind.

So, yes, an US cleaner will improve on your hand washing process but it will remain inferior to the standard automatic washing machines what incorporate US features to the process.

I’m a believer in pre-cleaning with the movement assembled then reassembling, full wash, peg’ing and reassemble.

Keep it going!!!!

Cheers!



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