Seiko 7S36 Rebuild Running Way Too Fast

[ro63rto]

My link shows the tech guide for the newer C movement and indicates to oil the jewels.

[jdm]

So what's being said is if I oiled the pallet fork pivot jewels this could be making it run way too fast?

 

Hmm, no. As mentioned before most likely that is eiter hairspring coils touching, or center of hs way off making regulator ineffective.

[jdm]

My link shows the tech guide for the newer C movement and indicates to oil the jewels.

 

Personally I wouldn't do that. These movements already have low amplitude, better not limit it further.

Edited November 8, 2015 by jdm

[SCOTTY]

I guess a good place to start would be to clean the pallet fork & cock, the pallet fork pivot jewel on the main plate, then oil only the pallet fork jewels. Any input?

[jdm]

Personally I wouldn't do that. These movements already have low amplitude, better not limit it further.

 

Sorry misread in responding. Nobody objects to oiling pallet jewels, talk is about oiling the pivot

Edited November 8, 2015 by jdm

[jdm]

I guess a good place to start would be to clean the pallet fork & cock, the pallet fork pivot jewel on the main plate, then oil only the pallet fork jewels. Any input?

 

To be honest wit you, I don't think that would slow down the movement. As mentioned before, you have to look at the hairspring and its regulation using a timing machine.

The hairspring and balance are pretty much the only elements that directly influences the rate. In fact it was invented for that very purpose.

Edited November 8, 2015 by jdm

[Geo]

To be honest wit you, I don't think that would slow down the movement.

It certainly could.

To quote JiminOz, "a sign of very fast running may be very low amplitude (how far the balance wheel spins from stop to stop)."

This can be caused by a sluggish pallet fork or a movement that is needing lubricated. A watch can actually run fast as far as far as time keeping is concerned, before it grinds to a halt from lack of lubrication.

[SCOTTY]

During disassembly, I removed the balance cock/wheel assembly & just set it aside & put it back when the time came during assembly of the movement. How could leaving the balance cock assembly intact throw it off so much?

[jdm]

It certainly could.

To quote JiminOz, "a sign of very fast running may be very low amplitude (how far the balance wheel spins from stop to stop)."

This can be caused by a sluggish pallet fork or a movement that is needing lubricated. A watch can actually run fast as far as far as time keeping is concerned, before it grinds to a halt from lack of lubrication.

 

No doubt. But in this case the OP hopefully oiled the movement when putting it back together?

Edited November 8, 2015 by jdm

[SCOTTY]

Yes I did oil.

[ricardopalamino]

I Know that there are apps  available so you can use your computer and microphone as a timing machine . I was looking for one for my Mac , but only came across a few  PC apps .

 

Here is one for an Iphone , for instance..........

 

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/kello/id380539253?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo=4

[JohnR725]

So what's being said is if I oiled the pallet fork pivot jewels this could be making it run way too fast? Also Note: This is a newer 7S36C movement & I did NOT take apart the balance cock **BLEEP**'y. I'm trying not to bite off more than I

can chew. It is fun though.

The short answer unless you try extremely hard oiling the pallet fork pivots is not the source your problems. Although you didn't tell us what lubrication you are using? I once saw in a classroom situation one of the watches the student worked on, on the timing machine could not be timed. It resemble a watch that hadn't been cleaned and lubricated in 100 years. In other words it had the symptoms of incredibly sticky gum oil preventing the train from moving in a proper fashion and it produced is really interesting waveform on the machine. So if you try really hard like grease instead of oil or something else inappropriate it will be a problem.

 

The problem we have for diagnosis of your watch is we need to see it. So we rely on your description and as a beginner you're not going to see what we see you're not going to see the problem more than likely. So we can guess lots of guesses and the guesses are all correct in some situations perhaps in your situation but we still can't see the watch. It's why asked for a photograph which might help us. Then yes I know trying to get a decent picture of the hairspring balance wheel is an issue.

 

So the simple is to make a watch go fast shorten the hairspring. You don't have to physically cut the hairspring off to make it short. As mentioned the other way to shorten the hairspring is something sticky on the coils they stick together. Magnetism on the modern watches it's different what it does it will be a problem but the coils usually don't stick together after the magnets removed. If this was a blued steel spring they can get magnetized and stick together. The most likely scenario is no matter how careful you were you probably have bent the hairspring. Then the other thing is what was the condition of this watch before you took it apart? In other words did the problem exist before or after you worked on it. So now we have the nifty new color tech sheet they're lots of pictures of the balance wheel on the hairspring to look at. Much much nicer than the old black and white.

 

Then regarding timing machines depending upon who made them they do have another feature which is amplification of the sound. A lot of times when listening to a watch if the hairspring is bumping into inappropriate things or rubbing it makes really interesting sounds sometimes.

 

Then for other ideas of how your hairspring is supposed to look a similar discussion probably not the same problem but he has some nice pictures the balance in the hairspring so you can compare.

 

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/2914-seiko-5-gaining-suggestions/

[SCOTTY]

The watch ran fine when I got it a little over a year ago & when I decided to take it apart to learn some horology. For lubrication I am using KT-22 for grease & a synthetic watch oil for oiling. I did soak & clean all the parts in 

naptha, aka Ronsonal with the exception of the balance cock/wheel assembly. I took a look at the link & the hairspring looks fine (to me that is). I can attach a pic of it if you like but I'm still learning to use this site so it might be a bit.

Thanks !

[SCOTTY]

Hello, It's been a little while & I'm gonna take another crack @ this. I've got the balance assembly out & I'm gonna soak it in

naptha for a bit then dry it off with my blower/ duster. The hs looks to be in great shape to me & I'm including pics 

 for anyone that might see something I don't. As for oiling the pallet pivots or jewels I really don't know

@ this point what to do. I can try leaving them dry for my next try if the hs bath doesn't work ? Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks !

                                                              I'll wait for a few replies before I put the                                                                           balance assembly back.

                                                              The first 2 pics the wheel pivot is out of                                                                           the jewel.

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by SCOTTY

[clockboy]

it looks like to me the final curve is wrong it should follow the same angle as the inner curl see vid which explains better than I can. Perhaps the first bend is not correct.

 

 

[SCOTTY]

11 minutes ago, clockboy said:

it looks like to me the final curve is wrong it should follow the same angle as the inner curl see vid which explains better than I can. Perhaps the first bend is not correct.

 

 

 

Thanks !  I'll check it out.

[ricardopalamino]

I want to thank You also clockboy . I am having issues of a watch running too slow and in trying to regulate the hairspring Both arms moved and now I don't know where things are for regulation . I am finally going to purchase a timing machine and this video helped greatly in helping me understand better how to adust and regulate a balance and hairspring . 

 

While I still have not grasped using a timing machine , seeing this , Marks , and other videos more than once is finally starting to help my understanding of these adjusting techniques .

[ftwizard]

I think the 7s36c technical guide shows how to resolve this problem.

[SCOTTY]

18 minutes ago, ftwizard said:

I think the 7s36c technical guide shows how to resolve this problem.

Do you mean the hard copy ?

[ricardopalamino]

Magnetized will definitely make a watch run fast, also dirty coils , coils touching each other ,  ...

 

I didn't see any trouble shooting in this tech sheet...

7S26A_7S36A.pdf

[SCOTTY]

8 minutes ago, ricardopalamino said:

Magnetized will definitely make a watch run fast, also dirty coils , coils touching each other ,  ...

 

I didn't see any trouble shooting in this tech sheet...

7S26A_7S36A.pdf

 

Already demagnetized it.  Gonna give the balance **BLEEP**'y a bath in naptha & hope that's it. But that's OK, I'm learning.

Thanks ! 

[ricardopalamino]

I sure You didn't , but I'll ask anyway . Could you by any chance be setting the impulse jewel into the pallet fork and turning the balance cock too much and therefore compressing the hair spring too much . I have never heard of this happing and don't even know if this is possible , But.......I'm trying to think out to the box ...

[clockboy]

I go to my original answer the outer coil is not in the correct path (angle). Without this being correct you will never get the regulation correct. This is because as you adjust the regulation arm the hairspring will in effect go off centre with the possabilaiy of coils touching. See the vid i posted.

[ftwizard]

11 hours ago, SCOTTY said:

Do you mean the hard copy ?

Page 11 explains 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Z2xlYXZlYW5kY28uY29tfHRlY2huaWNhbHxneDoyZWMxOGU0MTRjYjk5NWZi

[JohnR725]

For the beginner it’s not usually the obscure things that do you in its the basic stuff. The basic stuff that you don’t have the skill to see because it takes a lifetime to learn this.

So you are looking for the obscure problems of why watch runs fast it be really nice to see the hairspring and balance wheel in the watch to see what they look like. Then timing machines are incredibly nice for diagnosing things like this. As the cost of the Chinese timing machines is very low I think it’s almost must have now versus what they used to cost when I first started making them more of a luxury.

So looking at your last images I’ve reattached the image with a couple of things circled. Notice your hairspring is not centered? The coils on one side are farther apart the coils on the other side. Then because you’re not centered and as previously mentioned by others the terminal curve doesn’t look quite right the spring is practically touching the stud. If the hairspring touches the stud you shortened it by quite a bit is going to run insanely fast.

Then I’ve attached another image of a Seiko watch that I have so to get a general idea of what you should be seeing. Of course you really should looking at the hairspring in the watch because that’s where the problem is occurring not outside the watch where things sometimes can move around. Plus some things are just really hard to see unless it’s in the watch and even then it’s very hard to see if involves hairsprings.

Then it looks like your watches using the etachron system which makes fixing things like this easy providing you haven’t been bending the hairspring then it’s going to get to be more challenging. So from this image you can see what you should be seeing the top view and shows where the adjustments need to be made.

Then I've attached one more file what a hairspring sounds like if it's bumping into something.   Some timing machines will let you listen to the sound of the watch ticking and if it's bumping in the something  it has really interesting sound.

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