Seiko 7S36 Rebuild Running Way Too Fast

[SCOTTY]

I have tried rebuild a Seiko 7S36 movement several times but each time it comes out running WAY too fast, well beyond the adjustment range of the hairspring.

The only thing I didn't do was install the day/date components because I thought it would be a good idea to check if the main part of the movement was working

ok. What I would like to know is does the day/date feature with its components installed add resistance to the running of the movement so it will run like it

should? If anyone has any input & can help please do! Thank You!

 

Scotty

[jdm]

Calendar is not meant to slow down the rate.

Are you checking with a timegrapher? Is that consistent across all positions?have you demagnetize all parts especially hs?

Can you post an enlarged pic of the hs from top possibly with movement stopped at center.

Edited November 7, 2015 by jdm

[SCOTTY]

Thanks for replying! I dont have a timegrapher. Yes I have demagnetized a couple times. What is hs? Please bear with me I am a novice but really enjoy it !

I'm also pretty sure the roller jewel is between the 2 prongs on the pallet fork too. If not it would come to a dead halt, correct?

[bobm12]

hs = hairspring

[jdm]

hs is the hairspring.

You need a timegrapher or equivalent application to eliminate beat error before regulating rate. More difficult is to adjust regulator's pins gap, but that has less effect.

Edited November 7, 2015 by jdm

[SCOTTY]

What I did was put the hands on & watched it for 24 hrs or so. Isn't that ok?

[jdm]

What I did was put the hands on & watched it for 24 hrs or so. Isn't that ok?

 

No, you need a timegrapher or equivalent application to adjust beat error, rate, observe beat regularity  as well positional variations error.

[bobm12]

Hi Scotty,

 

that way you'll get results although not very accurate and you'll be done eventually, but a timegrapher is the way to go for precision and immediate results. 

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

 

PS. I would observe the hairspring carefully under high magnification to check for evenness and contaminants that may be shorting coils. Sometimes a drop of oil in the wrong place is all you need.

[SCOTTY]

Thanks. I hope they're not expensive. I have to leave for a bit. Will you be available later?

[bobm12]

I'm actually on and off considering I juggle my time to be able to be here at the moment (I'd rather be here!)

 

In any case, you can get a decent timegrapher from ebay for about US$150...about! Do a search in our forum for timegraphers for more info.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[JimInOz]

This movement is pretty bullet proof and a sign of very fast running may be very low amplitude (how far the balance wheel spins from stop to stop).

It could be caused by a number of factors. Check your train for smooth running by letting down the mainspring, removing the balance and pallet fork, then wind the mainspring gently and watch the train to see if it runs freely. Then refit the pallet fork and see how many turns you need to get a full wind on the mainspring which may tell you if the mainspring is broken or slipping (too much).

 

All of this assuming your hairspring is working perfectly of course.

 

A timegrapher is invaluable if you are going to do much tinkering.

[Geo]

That's good advice from JiminOz.

Another thing that can reduce amplitude is oiling the pallet fork pivots. The drag from the oil can retard the incredibly fast action that is required to give a strong impulse to the roller Jewel on the balance wheel.

[ricardopalamino]

That's good advice from JiminOz.

Another thing that can reduce amplitude is oiling the pallet fork pivots. The drag from the oil can retard the incredibly fast action that is required to give a strong impulse to the roller Jewel on the balance wheel.

Aloha Geo , Sooo , are you saying NOT to oil pallet fork pivots ?  I have over oiled pivots in the past when I first started servicing watches and saw the drag that too much oil can cause , but I lightly oil the pallet fork pivots and 3 teeth of the escape wheel .

Any suggestions ? ..Thanks , Louis

[clockboy]

An interesting debate possibly. I also do not oil the pallet folk pivots but do oil the stones. The reason is I have read many posts on other forums that recommend NOT to lubricate pallet folk pivots so I don,t. 

[Geo]

Sooo , are you saying NOT to oil pallet fork pivots ?

That's exactly what I am saying Louis.

My method for oiling the the escapement is done before I fit the balance. I to put the tiniest drop on each of the pallet stones, then with a dry oiler operate the lever four times to allow the escape wheel to rotate. This operation is done four times to ensure that the escape wheel has completed one revolution. I do not apply oil directly onto the teeth of the escape wheel, the oil gets there from the teeth contacting the pallet stones.

Here is a picture of an Omega's lubrication chart that clearly shows that you do not oil the pallet fork pivots.

[ricardopalamino]

Thank you for the explanation and pics Geo . After reading clockboys post I went and did a search on a few watch forums and checked several tech manual PDF's I have and as you both said , the lube is applied sparingly to the pallet stones . I did not see one case where oil was used on the pallet pivot .

 

I will now lube the stones and escape wheel using your method . 

 

Mahalo , Louis

[StuartBaker104]

Louis,

If you not come across this yet, you will find a great pdf on lubrication here: http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

Rgds

Stuart

[ricardopalamino]

Thank You very much Stuart . As a mater of fact NAWCC was one of the first forums I checked tonight . I found and saved this PDF . Definitely lots of good info here . I've got some reading to do .

[JohnR725]

It be really nice if we could have a close-up picture of the watch specifically centered over the balance wheel. I'd like to see the position of where you put the regulator and the floating stud. If you don't understand what you're doing you can move these in really bizarre positions and the watch is never going to keep time. Then if you had access to a timing machine/timegrapher It really can help speed up diagnosing things like this. There are some things that only the timing machine will show you there is no other way to find out. Then an alternative to a self-contained timing machine can be found at the link below.

 

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/

 

Then lubrication one of my favorite subjects especially in horological groups. So most of us know that the end of the world will come if we oil pallet fork pivots. For anyone with access to a timing machine put some oil on the pivots especially if its heavy oil the results could be quite dramatic. Except this is a Seiko watch and Seiko sometimes does things differently. In another group somewhere we were discussing the forbidden subject of lubrication I was probably pointing out the evils of oiling the pallet fork pivots and somebody pointed out that Seiko oils all of theirs. The reality when I went to the tech sheets is not all of them but most of them.

 

So I've attached some images the black-and-white comes out of service manual for the watch in question. Then at one time Seiko produced nice colorful lubrication charts two separate ones attached 7005 and the 6206. Notice one is oil and the other is not.

 

Then even though I pointed out Seiko does something different for someone learning watch repair your timing problem is not the lubrication of the pallet fork pivots it's probably something basic and simple it's not the obscure things that get the beginners it's the simple things that you don't understand yet.

[Geo]

Another excellent post John, thank you.

[jdm]

Then lubrication one of my favorite subjects especially in horological groups. So most of us know that the end of the world will come if we oil pallet fork pivots. For anyone with access to a timing machine put some oil on the pivots especially if its heavy oil the results could be quite dramatic. Except this is a Seiko watch and Seiko sometimes does things differently. In another group somewhere we were discussing the forbidden subject of lubrication I was probably pointing out the evils of oiling the pallet fork pivots and somebody pointed out that Seiko oils all of theirs. The reality when I went to the tech sheets is not all of them but most of them.

 

Correct. And they also oscillate (seems the right word to use in this context) in different revisions of the tech guide for the same movement. Attached two versions for the 7S26. First one indicate "extremely small quantity", second and third say "normal quantity" (!)

 

Another confusing practice of Seiko, some guides uses the normal convention of indicating oil q.ty with a drop symbol with none, one or two additional circles, and type by color or pattern. But others (example attached) do exactly the opposite.

 

All that even before coming the million dollar question - why Seiko greases look totally different from their generally recommended Swiss equivalents? 

917_Seiko7S26A,7S36A.pdf

7S25 tech.pdf

NH25.pdf

Edited November 8, 2015 by jdm

[ro63rto]

Here's the version that shows oiling points on 7s36 movement.

Can't seem to attach a pdf via tapatalk. Keeps crashing the app.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Z2xlYXZlYW5kY28uY29tfHRlY2huaWNhbHxneDoyZWMxOGU0MTRjYjk5NWZi

Edited November 8, 2015 by ro63rto

[jdm]

Here's the version that shows oiling points on 7s36 movement.

Can't seem to attach a pdf via tapatalk. Keeps crashing the app.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Z2xlYXZlYW5kY28uY29tfHRlY2huaWNhbHxneDoyZWMxOGU0MTRjYjk5NWZi

 

That is first attachment in my posting above.

[ro63rto]

That is first attachment in my posting above.

Yeah but mine is in colour [emoji1]

Only kidding.

Just realised as the one I have had more pages I thought yours was the parts only version.

[SCOTTY]

So what's being said is if I oiled the pallet fork pivot jewels this could be making it run way too fast? Also Note: This is a newer 7S36C movement & I did NOT take apart the balance cock **BLEEP**'y. I'm trying not to bite off more than I

can chew. It is fun though.