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15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Then this is definitely one of the issues you are having ross, most of that energy the mainspring is producing coming through the train is being killed by a balance that doesn't want to oscillate. As nickelsilver said, focus on the balance assembly, maybe do the test first and deal with getting the balance running right before continuing any other part of the build. Make that your priority for now, so as soon as you are at that stage get some pictures posted and describe exactly whats happening. We can all get our heads together and get this area fixed before looking at anything else.  

Good advice. Back to basics for me. Seiko 7009 with 151 amplitude is my Monday job.

My apologies for the descriptions. My dyslexia makes it hard to put my system into the exact words to fully describe. I am trying. Yes, I know. I'm very trying. Haha.

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51 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 We can all get our heads together 

Our heads ARE together already , may I have my nose back please.

I know chinese 7s26 , 2428  etc oscilators oscilate as they like. 

 

Edited by Nucejoe
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2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Good advice. Back to basics for me. Seiko 7009 with 151 amplitude is my Monday job.

My apologies for the descriptions. My dyslexia makes it hard to put my system into the exact words to fully describe. I am trying. Yes, I know. I'm very trying. Haha.

I'm sure i also have some form of that, i have to read very slowly and more than once so that information sinks in, and sometimes my words get mixed.

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28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 i have to read very slowly and more than once so that information sinks in, and sometimes my words get mixed.

Apart from your extensive use of slang, I find your writing far more expressive than avg , being a non native English reader I well understand your posts,  perhaps you are careful constructing your sentenses, some folks shoot as if those who don't understand them ought to pay out of state tax or go to Gaza.

 

 

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Sorry, I was missing for a while. OK, so we have bad free oscillations test...

Ross, we need now to understand if the problem is in the bearings or in the hairspring. And, has it something to do with the cleaning process.

Now, the balance actually does not need to be clean for reaching good oscillations count. Only the pivots need to be clean, this is the part of the balance that goes in the stones, and stones need to be clean too. I will recommend to do different cleaning to see what will happen. The pivots can be cleaned mechanically. Use soft wooden stick to drive the pivot in the face of it and rotate the stick for a while, this is enough to clean the pivot. Exercise on balance that is not important first, to be sure that will not break some pivot. The stone settings - deep them in some domestic degreaser for 2-3 hours, then wash them in water, and finally in isopropanol. Do the test again, first dry, then oil the stones.

Edited by nevenbekriev
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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Apart from your extensive use of slang, I find your writing far more expressive than avg , being a non native English reader I well understand your posts,  perhaps you are careful constructing your sentenses, some folks shoot as if those who don't understand them ought to pay out of state tax or go to Gaza.

 

 

I like to put time and effort into making myself well understood . I often rewrite whole sentences and edit after reading back through a post. I dont like shortcutting on words or shorthand that can be misread, i do try to keep it simple.  It's a big part of my ocd.  One of my customers once  said to me # if my attention to love making is as good as my texting then my wife is a very luck woman # 🤣🤣🤣

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm sure i also have some form of that, i have to read very slowly and more than once so that information sinks in, and sometimes my words get mixed.

unfortunately dyslexia does not affect just reading it affects writing also. Which is why I use dictation software because if I had to hand typed I would never be here. Then as a guess most the people on this group have dyslexia.

there is a interesting study a while back a book was written and I believe they have an entire society now promoting their thoughts on the advantages of having dyslexia. simplistically they found when taking out the common factors of dyslexia reading and writing well they found people with dyslexia have advantages which is why a sizable percentage of the people on the group have dyslexia.

for instance one of the stories in the beginning of the book a doctors explaining to a mother about her kid with dyslexia oh dear. she is grasping that her son is a spelling problem and the doctor keeps saying the words of like a doctor. It kinda goes back and forth much longer than I'm doing in this and at some point in time she grasps like a doctor? Why do you think doctors can't spell dyslexia. Or almost everybody or everybody at MIT has dyslexia for instance. The book goes on to all kinds of examples of breaks people up in the categories so dyslexia is not necessarily bad it's only bad for us communicating. Or me using my dictation software which frustrates the readers of the group and occasionally gets scolded for my ineptness of not seeing a problem because dictation software never makes a spelling mistake and I don't always catch the mistakes it makes.

On 2/15/2024 at 4:22 AM, Endeavor said:

There are many cooks in this kitchen 🤔

I'm expanding that not just too many cooks but too many thoughts and ideas were spiraling out of control actually we have spiraled out of control which brings up a serious problem for all of us.

5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Why didn't you tell us about this at the beginning? You've been advised at least twice to conduct this test over the last few days, without giving us feedback. Sorry to get on your back, but if you don't listen, the less patient among us (speaking for myself here) will give up offering advice. Here endeth the sermon.

 

another reference of too many cooks in the kitchen brings up the problem of were all trying to help. Unfortunately the discussion has spiraled out of control as were all suggesting things lots of things and the common problem here is Ross. So now Ross has to try to interpret all of this flood of suggestions ideas whatever and that's a challenge a big challenge for all of us were not going to get answers back at all or they'll be delayed or nothing's going to be achieved here it's time to start over.

Russ I believe you have a running watch you need to start a new conversation on perhaps review of how to service a watch. We could all use a review of servicing and we slow things down and go step-by-step of how to service your watch. Because that's really what you're asking how to service a watch successfully so it's running equal to or better then when you started. So for the reviews step-by-step to helping people can get answers on a more timely basis to analyze what's going on rather than simultaneously running a whole bunch of discussions all at the same time. But that's only my suggestion I'm sure others have other thoughts on this.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

unfortunately dyslexia does not affect just reading it affects writing also. Which is why I use dictation software because if I had to hand typed I would never be here. Then as a guess most the people on this group have dyslexia.

there is a interesting study a while back a book was written and I believe they have an entire society now promoting their thoughts on the advantages of having dyslexia. simplistically they found when taking out the common factors of dyslexia reading and writing well they found people with dyslexia have advantages which is why a sizable percentage of the people on the group have dyslexia.

for instance one of the stories in the beginning of the book a doctors explaining to a mother about her kid with dyslexia oh dear. she is grasping that her son is a spelling problem and the doctor keeps saying the words of like a doctor. It kinda goes back and forth much longer than I'm doing in this and at some point in time she grasps like a doctor? Why do you think doctors can't spell dyslexia. Or almost everybody or everybody at MIT has dyslexia for instance. The book goes on to all kinds of examples of breaks people up in the categories so dyslexia is not necessarily bad it's only bad for us communicating. Or me using my dictation software which frustrates the readers of the group and occasionally gets scolded for my ineptness of not seeing a problem because dictation software never makes a spelling mistake and I don't always catch the mistakes it makes.

I'm expanding that not just too many cooks but too many thoughts and ideas were spiraling out of control actually we have spiraled out of control which brings up a serious problem for all of us.

 

another reference of too many cooks in the kitchen brings up the problem of were all trying to help. Unfortunately the discussion has spiraled out of control as were all suggesting things lots of things and the common problem here is Ross. So now Ross has to try to interpret all of this flood of suggestions ideas whatever and that's a challenge a big challenge for all of us were not going to get answers back at all or they'll be delayed or nothing's going to be achieved here it's time to start over.

Russ I believe you have a running watch you need to start a new conversation on perhaps review of how to service a watch. We could all use a review of servicing and we slow things down and go step-by-step of how to service your watch. Because that's really what you're asking how to service a watch successfully so it's running equal to or better then when you started. So for the reviews step-by-step to helping people can get answers on a more timely basis to analyze what's going on rather than simultaneously running a whole bunch of discussions all at the same time. But that's only my suggestion I'm sure others have other thoughts on this.

 

 

keep it simple, pick a path to follow stick to it and take it one step at a time.  What can possibly go wrong ? 🙂

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

unfortunately dyslexia does not affect just reading it affects writing also. Which is why I use dictation software because if I had to hand typed I would never be here. Then as a guess most the people on this group have dyslexia.

there is a interesting study a while back a book was written and I believe they have an entire society now promoting their thoughts on the advantages of having dyslexia. simplistically they found when taking out the common factors of dyslexia reading and writing well they found people with dyslexia have advantages which is why a sizable percentage of the people on the group have dyslexia.

for instance one of the stories in the beginning of the book a doctors explaining to a mother about her kid with dyslexia oh dear. she is grasping that her son is a spelling problem and the doctor keeps saying the words of like a doctor. It kinda goes back and forth much longer than I'm doing in this and at some point in time she grasps like a doctor? Why do you think doctors can't spell dyslexia. Or almost everybody or everybody at MIT has dyslexia for instance. The book goes on to all kinds of examples of breaks people up in the categories so dyslexia is not necessarily bad it's only bad for us communicating. Or me using my dictation software which frustrates the readers of the group and occasionally gets scolded for my ineptness of not seeing a problem because dictation software never makes a spelling mistake and I don't always catch the mistakes it makes.

I'm expanding that not just too many cooks but too many thoughts and ideas were spiraling out of control actually we have spiraled out of control which brings up a serious problem for all of us.

 

another reference of too many cooks in the kitchen brings up the problem of were all trying to help. Unfortunately the discussion has spiraled out of control as were all suggesting things lots of things and the common problem here is Ross. So now Ross has to try to interpret all of this flood of suggestions ideas whatever and that's a challenge a big challenge for all of us were not going to get answers back at all or they'll be delayed or nothing's going to be achieved here it's time to start over.

Russ I believe you have a running watch you need to start a new conversation on perhaps review of how to service a watch. We could all use a review of servicing and we slow things down and go step-by-step of how to service your watch. Because that's really what you're asking how to service a watch successfully so it's running equal to or better then when you started. So for the reviews step-by-step to helping people can get answers on a more timely basis to analyze what's going on rather than simultaneously running a whole bunch of discussions all at the same time. But that's only my suggestion I'm sure others have other thoughts on this.

 

 

Thank you John. As you say. Time for a review. A time to step back and begin again me thinks.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

keep it simple, pick a path to follow stick to it and take it one step at a time.  What can possibly go wrong ? 🙂

Yes. I do need to re-set.

 

PLESE NOTE 

                                  -- ----  FINAL COMMENT ON THIS POSTING PLEASE -------

Thank you all folks. I think there is enough on this post to keep me going for a while. Lets call it a day and give me a chance assimilate all the comments.  There are good aren't they?

Need to do a rethink into my systems and to put them into practice.

Thank you to all.

Regards

Ross

Edited by rossjackson01
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 I am sorry John ,  had no idea, was just joking, thought must be your long posts explaining details.

Agree,  too many cooks , doing the dishes only openning left. 

Someday, someone reading this thread might wonder what amplitude was it after all. 

All the best

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Someday, someone reading this thread might wonder what amplitude was it after all. 

there is nothing that would prevent Ross or anyone else from coming back to this conversation and answering the question of what was causing the low amplitude.

The problem right now is we're going into many directions and it doesn't help anybody doing what were doing.

 

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Thank you John and others for participating. If we could end this discussion now before if falls into dissention.

I am working on a number of the comments made by members. It will take some time. And, I will of course give a result.

Thank you.

Sorry I've let most of you down by not understanding fully. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update. And I know it is nice to read about an update and not wonder at the outcome.

Before I commence to tell. I would like to send special thanks to members, both in the post and those who contacted me via private messages. Many sensed that I was becoming stressed and being concerned for me, contacted with help and messages of well intention. As you may have realised, I was very close. Despondent.

I took the advice of many and set myself down and read the messages a number of times. Do you know how good you are? Friendship is not a big enough word. 

 

Where am I now? Back is where. Thank you. And possible end of my woes.

 

I put into practice what many said. Look at what you do. As you have all said, in some form. I needed to look at all aspects of my system of installation.  Well, this I have done. I looked at:-

Disassembly. Did I pull, twist , damage any item in removal, especially the balance and pallet. I checked a number of watches that I had serviced and it looked ok. Checked all items on the microscope. Showed how careful I was. No damage seen.

 

Cleaning.

As before. Pegwood. All items in lighter fluid (Naptha) then Ultrasonic.  Pallet fork and balance cleaning in fluid but not Ultrasonic.

All items in Isopropyl and Ultrasonic. Pallet fork and balance cleaning dipped in fluid and then blow dried (no ultrasonic for these).

Everything checked again with microscope. No damage to pallet or balance.  

I now needed to reassemble, so plenty of more practice now.

 

Each item installed, following many members videos. Took my time. always check train of wheels ease of free movement.

Barrel and spring always cleaned and lubricated. End shake checked.

Dial side, motion works and keyless works always check and lubricated.

Pallet installed. Exit stone oiled and rotated. 

Jewels removed and installed, correct way up folks. Oiled as per directions.

 

And now. The balance. And the problem amplitude. After a number of tests it would appear the culprit it is me.

I am careful with screw installation of all parts. I never overtighten. I close down, check item and then tighten gently. Using Alex Hamilton's guidance of down, check and then tighten only the width of the screw head gap, if that. Never had a problem. 

It would appear that as the balance is always on a heavy bridge I always secured it tight. I inadvertently closed the end shake, increasing resistance and decreasing the Amplitude.

This is the only screw on which I ever put a 'full' pressure turn.  It would appear that little amount of extra pressure always gave enough to close down the end shake.  Less is more it would seem.

 

I have tested this with a few watches now. Removed the balance. Cleaned, jewels also, and replaced.  Installed to the bind, but this time watching the groove, tighten to possibly half the distance. Amplitude is increasing to a tolerable rate. Certainly in the 200 degree area, an increase of 30% all round. 

Whilst it is not the bee all and end all to my problems, at least it has given me a way forward. 

 

Have I overcome my problem? Could it have been so simple? In reality, I don't think so, still some way to go. But sitting back, going over system and totally applying what members say is the way.

 

The outcome? Watchmaking, ongoing.  I feel able to begin to partake in discussions again.

So, thank you.

Ross

 

 

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Hmmmm- Glad things are working better, but you should be able to tighten the balance cock "fully" and still have endshake. If you get the cap jewels in upside-down (convex side toward pivot) you will remove endshake. Otherwise, over several watches, it would be strange for the endshake to disappear from properly tightening the balance cock screw. In school, if your screws aren't tight, like you think they might snap, you get your movement tossed in the sawdust box!

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35 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Update. And I know it is nice to read about an update and not wonder at the outcome.

Before I commence to tell. I would like to send special thanks to members, both in the post and those who contacted me via private messages. Many sensed that I was becoming stressed and being concerned for me, contacted with help and messages of well intention. As you may have realised, I was very close. Despondent.

I took the advice of many and set myself down and read the messages a number of times. Do you know how good you are? Friendship is not a big enough word. 

 

Where am I now? Back is where. Thank you. And possible end of my woes.

 

I put into practice what many said. Look at what you do. As you have all said, in some form. I needed to look at all aspects of my system of installation.  Well, this I have done. I looked at:-

Disassembly. Did I pull, twist , damage any item in removal, especially the balance and pallet. I checked a number of watches that I had serviced and it looked ok. Checked all items on the microscope. Showed how careful I was. No damage seen.

 

Cleaning.

As before. Pegwood. All items in lighter fluid (Naptha) then Ultrasonic.  Pallet fork and balance cleaning in fluid but not Ultrasonic.

All items in Isopropyl and Ultrasonic. Pallet fork and balance cleaning dipped in fluid and then blow dried (no ultrasonic for these).

Everything checked again with microscope. No damage to pallet or balance.  

I now needed to reassemble, so plenty of more practice now.

 

Each item installed, following many members videos. Took my time. always check train of wheels ease of free movement.

Barrel and spring always cleaned and lubricated. End shake checked.

Dial side, motion works and keyless works always check and lubricated.

Pallet installed. Exit stone oiled and rotated. 

Jewels removed and installed, correct way up folks. Oiled as per directions.

 

And now. The balance. And the problem amplitude. After a number of tests it would appear the culprit it is me.

I am careful with screw installation of all parts. I never overtighten. I close down, check item and then tighten gently. Using Alex Hamilton's guidance of down, check and then tighten only the width of the screw head gap, if that. Never had a problem. 

It would appear that as the balance is always on a heavy bridge I always secured it tight. I inadvertently closed the end shake, increasing resistance and decreasing the Amplitude.

This is the only screw on which I ever put a 'full' pressure turn.  It would appear that little amount of extra pressure always gave enough to close down the end shake.  Less is more it would seem.

 

I have tested this with a few watches now. Removed the balance. Cleaned, jewels also, and replaced.  Installed to the bind, but this time watching the groove, tighten to possibly half the distance. Amplitude is increasing to a tolerable rate. Certainly in the 200 degree area, an increase of 30% all round. 

Whilst it is not the bee all and end all to my problems, at least it has given me a way forward. 

 

Have I overcome my problem? Could it have been so simple? In reality, I don't think so, still some way to go. But sitting back, going over system and totally applying what members say is the way.

 

The outcome? Watchmaking, ongoing.  I feel able to begin to partake in discussions again.

So, thank you.

Ross

 

 

The balance cock screw is a fair size so you can crank down on it to a point, bearing in mind that you are using small screwdrivers with only a 5 or 6mm shaft between your fingers tips and not a driver handle in your palm.  The screw should be fastened down completely, looks like you've discovered some consistent lack of endshake but a fully tightened balance cock should not be the real cause of that . This is one good reason for just focusing on getting the balance running correctly and forget everything else for now considering you've probably pinpointed your main issue. You did previously identify that issue with a free oscillation test of lasting only 15 seconds, well under what you should be getting. Keep at it Ross you are getting warmer. 

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2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Idiomatic expression? Meaning what? 🤔

Back in the day you would always dry parts in sawdust; it soaks off the solvent (benzine, maybe alcohol) and avoids condensation. There were little boxes with a layer of sawdust at every bench. The "dust" part is misleading- more like dust-free micro wood chips.

 

This was still common, at least in the restoration end of things, when I was in school. If you brought something to the teacher to check that was clearly wrong, you might get away with it once, but after that your movement went in the sawdust. Meaning you got to take it all apart and reclean and oil it... so you got good at bringing things up that were worth the teacher's time, haha!.

 

I still use sawdust sometimes, but I didn't drop student's movements in it when I was teaching, and don't do it to the new guys at the workshop- though I have been pretty tempted. 🫢

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7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

No damage seen.

one of the interesting problems in life is seeing things? Also microscopes do not necessarily help for seeing things conceivably they will make things worse. Seeing involves visually observing something sending it to your brain and your brain has to interpret what you see which is the problem. If your brain is unable to figure out what it's seeing or just doesn't grasp well that's why the microscope doesn't help at all making something bigger if you still don't grasp what it is you're looking at or why you're looking at it the outcome will still be the same you just not going to see or grasp the problem at all.

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

And now. The balance. And the problem amplitude. After a number of tests it would appear the culprit it is me.

I am careful with screw installation of all parts. I never overtighten. I close down, check item and then tighten gently. Using Alex Hamilton's guidance of down, check and then tighten only the width of the screw head gap, if that. Never had a problem. 

It would appear that as the balance is always on a heavy bridge I always secured it tight. I inadvertently closed the end shake, increasing resistance and decreasing the Amplitude.

This is the only screw on which I ever put a 'full' pressure turn.  It would appear that little amount of extra pressure always gave enough to close down the end shake.  Less is more it would seem.

then on the very top line of the quote I would agree the problem is you because you're the only one working on the watch. Then I was thinking where do you live? The reason I bring this up is United Kingdom is a relatively small place compared to other parts of the planet and I do happen to know they have transportation like trains unlike other parts of the world. Because the UK is relatively small one of the ways to improve your eyesight issue would be to find somebody else on the group and get together compare notes. Often times somebody else will see something that you cannot. I'm actually quite amazed that since so many people are in the UK that you haven't already formed a support group?

then the second problem of the quote is the biggest of all the total failure to grasp what screws are used for in a watch. Screws do not have a double purpose of controlling end shake they must be screwed down tight otherwise the watch will fall apart. The definition of tight can be a bit of a challenge. For instance trying to disassemble watch were somebody had a much heavier hand than they should have and the screws don't want to come out that is too tight. But gently tightening them down hoping your watch will run is totally wrong and using them to adjust the end shake is extremely wrong and you still have a problem here.

But I guess the good news is we've narrowed the problem down to the balance bridge providing all the rest of the screws are down tight.

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

This was still common, at least in the restoration end of things, when I was in school. If you brought something to the teacher to check that was clearly wrong, you might get away with it once, but after that your movement went in the sawdust. Meaning you got to take it all apart and reclean and oil it... so you got good at bringing things up that were worth the teacher's time, haha!.

 

in my first school as far as I know no watch went into the sawdust. but in the second school that we attended there was the danger of that and other things you had to be extremely careful about wasting the instructors time. On the other hand I don't recall anyone that ever did have a watch glint of the sawdust maybe it was just the threat that was there the intimidating presence of the instructor.

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10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

But gently tightening them down hoping your watch will run is totally wrong and using them to adjust the end shake is extremely wrong and you still have a problem here.

The Russian watchmakers have an affinity for shims under the balance cock, and poor watchmakers will chisel a notch in the plate to slightly raise the cock rather than adjust a setting. However, these "fixes" should be the exception, not the rule and not for every movement.  

Ross, are you sure you are putting the shock jewels back in with the flat side toward the pivots? Have you checked your work area for magnetism? (a simple compass would do the trick), or perhaps a practical joker swapped your 9010 for maple syrup. 

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5 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

9010 tastes horrible. 

On pancakes maybe, but waffles?

So we've narrowed it down to aliens, evil spirits or the ancient Celtic burial ground your shop is over.

 

Silliness aside, have you considered sending a problematic watch to someone on WRT to evaluate? Or if someone is close to you invite them over for a shop review and a cold one? At this point I think it might be time for a second set of eyes on the issue.

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@rossjackson01I would start with a perfectly working movement, that has the correct endshake of the gear train and balance, with a high amplitude and a perfectly new mainspring, so you are eliminating as many variables as possible to start with. You can then rule out any initial problems with the movement. Screwing down bridges and cocks tightly should/will have no bearing on amplitude. In fact not tightening them properly will give you problems!

I would then move on to using proper cleaning fluid and rinse, rather than lighter fluid and IPA. They work fine, but it would eliminate that variable as well. Watchmaking is witling down what it can't be and you're left with the possibilities, then probabilities. Always do only one thing and measure the result of that change or adjustment. A good movement would be an ST36 from AliExpress, which I use for my teaching. Cheap as chips.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005872942857.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.23.55171802P4233F

Measuring the endshake of a balance is vital. The more you do it the more you'll know what feels and what feels wrong. A lot of movements would be about 0.02 to 0.04 mm endshake of the balance, but the St36 is close to 0.08 to 0.09 mm, as it is a very big movement. I take a class on reducing and increasing endshake of the balance and seeing the huge drop in amplitude by adjusting the balance endshake by as little as 0.03 mm tighter or looser on the ST36. Usually the big drop will be in vertical positions, but also in horizontal ones as well, but not as much. At least using a new movement will eliminate that variable of too much or little balance endshake to start with, although I had an Incabloc setting move with a students watch this week and I had to increase the setting by 0.06 mm so the balance didn't stop when the balance cock was tightened. Checking the impulse face of the pallet stones is also vital, as they have to be mirror clean. I use Moebius 9415, but at a push you can get away with 9010.

You'll get there, I'm sure!

 

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@Jon I didn't realize that end shake was that critical. Very, very interesting reading. Thanks!

Now the question I have is; how do you adjust the end shake of a balance? It's not covered much at all or I think I would have noticed over the years. For increasing the end shake, all I've seen is carving up a bump under the main plate under the balance cock or using shims. When servicing a Citizen 8200A I used aluminium foil but it doesn't feel like a best practice. I have no idea about how one decreases the balance end-shake. I would expect this topic to be rather complex but if you could describe the overall idea it would be super interesting.

Also, how do you measure end shake? I think I'm able to assess the end shake of train wheels reasonably well by mounting one wheel at a time looking at it through my microscope and comparing it to the gap I see in my micrometre, but when it comes to balance end-shake I can only try to assess the end shake by feel and it certainly is a far cry from being able to tell what it actually is.

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    • I was wondering what this tool is for?    Some kind of runner?
    • The JLC sealed barrels I've dealt with are sealed, with the lip burnished over like Nevenbekriev says. They can be opened, but you have to push the lip more open to get the lid to seat again correctly and it's still a bit hairy. They aren't as bad as Zodiac (those you can forget about opening much less closing without issue).   The chances of mucking it up are high enough that it's probably safest just to add a little lubricant at the arbor and call it good.
    • I have a few pin pallets,they are challenging to get any half decent reading on a tg, thats part of the allure of them for me  you can see here the trace is not that good, the lines are a little dotted around, though i have had better on a couple of others. You just have to live with what you can get, when you watch how the pallet pin releases the escape teeth you will understand why, it has no finesse. The tolerances make Russian watches look like Rolexes 🤣. The amplitude is a bit of a guess as there is no lift angle for the Oris 291 anywhere, visually the impulse pin is reaching to around 3/4 of a beat possibly a little more, this is due entirely to the mainspring i put in ( likely it will shake itself to pieces if keep fully winding the movement. But generally 220- 240 would be about the average I've managed to get up to now besides this , so no not as high a swiss lever for me anyway, maybe they're not designed for it, they are cheap movements. If they keep to a minute a day thats probably good, though my Smiths Empire after a lot of adjustment over time has reached within a minute of accurate per week a couple of times, precision record has averaged at approx 4 minutes per week over 2 months so 2 minutes either side of accurate time.  Good question oh i wondered that myself , i can only assume its from something else . The 261 and 292 are sweep seconds, i wonder if the cannon pinion is the same from them ?
    • Ok, I'm glad. It then looks like you are in a good place with the client/friend. That's the key. And also my approach with friends/clients.   Yes, I also understand that, too. But if it's not a question of being stingy, but only impatient, I'd maybe urge him/her even more towards the virtue of patience. It would be worth it. But you are right, just wait until you can open it and you'll (hopefully?) find good reasons to recommend the full service at this moment. 
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