Low Amplitude from Ultrasonic cleaning?

[rossjackson01]

Hello to all who know about cleaning of the balance and cock. I need help.

I really do enjoy working on watches and have learned a lot. However, I am at a loss to know why I am not achieving what others achieve. Good amplitude.

My question. Am I cleaning too well? Balance too long in Ultrasonic?

Is it my cleaning method? I do not have access to a cleaning machine, but do achieve very good results for final cleaning of the parts.

I remove the movement from the case. Put the case  and bracelet in the Ultrasonic. It always cleans well. This part is OK.

I disassemble and peg all the parts as required. I place all parts in Lighter fluid jar and put them into water and use the ultrasonic. Balance is attached to the plate for safety as I have always been advised to do Ultrasonic for 3 x 2 minutes. Everything is good. I remove the balance and pallet fork 

I then place all into Isopropyl and do the same by Ultrasonic. 3 x 2 minutes. Cleaning is excellent.

I reassemble, and the train is always lose and rotates well. I can do that OK. Pallet fork installs well. 

 

From this point it is always down hill. Put the balance in. Amplitude is hardly evermore that 50% of what it should be. Always under 150 and often under 100. Aaagh

I see people putting the balance attached to the plate and rotating in the cleaning machine. Whole time is often more that 30 minutes. They have no motion problems. Why do I?

Is it the amount of time I have it in the Ultrasonic? should I remove the balance after the first 2 minutes?

Maybe I am answering my own question. Advice please

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, You have lo amplitude, so You need to investigate the reason. I don't know is it connected in any way with the cleaning and with ultrasound. But You are able to understand is it balance problem or not. Just do the free oscillations test. Do it in both DU and DD positions and tell us what the result is. The result will show the direction  where to go further.

[rehajm]

Yes. What does the balance look like after cleaning? Hairspring flat and round? Jewels? 

FWIW I’ve been soaking my balance wheel w/spring in hairspring dip only. Only a little agitation with a blower. Maybe lighter fluid first if the wheel is very dirty. I was worried my Pearl machine was too aggressive. I’m afraid of a hairspring in the ultrasonic so never tried…

Edited February 14 by rehajm

[rossjackson01]

4 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, You have lo amplitude, so You need to investigate the reason. I don't know is it connected in any way with the cleaning and with ultrasound. But You are able to understand is it balance problem or not. Just do the free oscillations test. Do it in both DU and DD positions and tell us what the result is. The result will show the direction  where to go further.

This low amplitude is not on one watch. It is on every watch I have done over the last 18 month. 28 of the little .......s. Blow is low amplitude always.

Seiko 4006. 6309. 6319. 7009 7S26

ETA 2789. 2789-1

Citizen 8200

Sekonda 2427. 2428.

Enicar 167

Bulova 1721

 

To clarify. I am able at my current level, to emulate many of the YouTube I admire. I can disassemble with care. Clean all item carefully. Use staking set. Wind mainsprings by hand or use a winder. I can even work successfully on hairsprings. I'm reasonable. Not great, but learning. I can't for the life of me get good amplitude. 

[rehajm]

Welp…Seikos are lower amplitude but not in the 150s…even if we take those off the board...my accounting instincts say you’re consistent in an inconsistency somewhere.

I’d start with auditing the list…

…make sure your lubrication game is truly on point. Don’t run the next balance thru the ultrasonic?

Edited February 14 by rehajm

[JohnR725]

27 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

This low amplitude is not on one watch. It is on every watch I have done over the last 18 month. 28 of the little .......s. Blow is low amplitude always.

seeing as how were problem solving a whole bunch of watches simultaneously which I preferred not to do we need to look at the common factors of what is common?

59 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Am I cleaning too well?

absolutely positively not. But bad cleaning procedure that's causing harm that would be a problem.

when I first started watch repair the school had two separate cleaning machines both of them used ultrasonic. Everything went through the ultrasonic the balance wheel and the pallet fork. Typically other than discussion groups like this professional watchmaker's run everything through the cleaning machine. The second school I went to we were cleaning watches all day long the same watches over and over again running to the cleaning machine where the cleaning cycle have been locked at no more than four minutes. Because they're basically clean watches are being re-cleaned over and over again. Then cleaning too good well what about the $16,000 Elma vacuum assisted cleaning machine that we have at work vacuum assisted yes it does a really good job of cleaning. So I seriously doubt cleaning too well is a problem unless you're cleaning to the point where your etching the metal or something? And cleaning the balance wheel shouldn't be an issue either

when I would be curious about though is if you do a before and after timing so in other words before the watch was doing this and now it's doing worse as opposed to starting with broken watches that conceivably still have issues so were any of the watches that are not running well now running before a running better before then after?

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Is it my cleaning method? I do not have access to a cleaning machine,

yes not having a professional watch cleaning machine is definitely your problem 100% you must have a professional machine or else all blow we do know somebody recently purchased one of the Elm machines and it's not happy at all. Or what about this at home I didn't have a professional machine I did have baskets purchased on eBay and look how I'm holding my watch parts all little tiny stuff go into baskets all the big parts are strong on the wire.

then here is my professional watch cleaning machine as you can see it is not actually a professional watch cleaning machine. It's a tiny ultrasonic machine with a beaker but I am using professional watch cleaning fluids and rinse. Oh and not shown in the picture the final rinse is alcohol not isopropyl alcohol because they didn't have that but I use the alcohol that dissolves shellac. It even says on the candidate will dissolves shellac it's a thinner for shellac. But all I use that for is rinsing off the final rinse and in the 15 seconds it's in there it doesn't harm anything at all. So I doubt the lack of a professional cleaning machine is your issue.

 

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

I place all parts in Lighter fluid jar and put them into water and use the ultrasonic. Balance is attached to the plate for safety as I have always been advised to do Ultrasonic for 3 x 2 minutes. Everything is good. I remove the balance and pallet fork 

I then place all into Isopropyl and do the same by Ultrasonic. 3 x 2 minutes. Cleaning is excellent.

I don't quite understand this? So lighter fluid in the ultrasonic not the best cleaning fluid but it will work is a lot of other people in the group using it. Then you do the isopropyl plot is still don't understand 3×2 you want to spell that out a little more clearly?

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

I reassemble, and the train is always lose and rotates well. I can do that OK. Pallet fork installs well. 

 

From this point it is always down hill. Put the balance in. Amplitude is hardly evermore that 50% of what it should be. Always under 150 and often under 100. Aaagh

then we should also talk about other common factors like lubrication I don't see any mention of it it's amazing how much amplitude you pick up if you properly lubricate your escapement for instance.

Then timing machine what he using the measure the amplitude. Often times people using phone apps and that's their problem.

 

[rehajm]

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then timing machine what he using the measure the amplitude. Often times people using phone apps and that's their problem

Yes, excellent question I was going to use as lead: do the watches keep time?

[Nucejoe]

 Lighter , isopropinol and most other petrochemical product are no longer shelac friendly in ultrasonic. I bet you a whole dime , you have been  loosing shelac in ultrasonic, rendering pallets loose to misalign or move, which has been causing amplitude loss. Check you pallets to find little or no shelac on them, impulse pins were shelaced back in the days, so check the shelac on them as well.

Hairspring is flex so it easily vibrates in response to mild waves of ultrasonic thus wont get damaged.

Check all shelaced points Ross.

Clean and peg pallets and impulse pins by hand, use lighter fluid but keep shelac away from lighter fluid as best as you can. 

Good luck pal.

[rossjackson01]

Thank you for your replies

My cleaning system. 

Pegging.

All items in baskets and into jar 1 (lighter fluid). Jar into warm water in Ultrasonic machine. 3 cycles of 2 minutes.

Shellac items removed. Tweezer dipped into Isopropyl and liquid dropped onto items by opening of tweezers. Blow dry with hand air bellow after 20 seconds. Watched carefully to see iIsopropyl being evaporated around shellac asap.

All other items into jar 2 Isopropyl. 3 cycles of 2 minutes .

All items.  Blow dry in heater 10 minutes.

All watches that had working balances, and I mean all, even though they were low prior to service were reduced by 50% amplitude due to my service. Wheels moved freely. Pallett fork action always crisp. Something wrong with my system somewhere. Oils 9010, D5 and Molykote DX. If you can see it, it is too much. As little and gentle as Adam's videos.

I am extremely careful when removing the balance. Never tug. Placed down and carefully turned. Hairspring is never touched.

Do they run. Yes

Timegrapher used. I nearly always get within 3s a day and Beat error under 0.5. But amplitude is always far less than when I started. They do run and some keep very good time. Even if it was a none runner, that now runs, and they all do after I have serviced, amplitude is rubbish. 

I am very happy that I can get a movement running. 

Dispirited and Despondent are my middle names. 

 

 

It's so hard being on your own. 

This just a Rant. I'm not giving up. Just feeling my middle names are more pronounced. Aaaaaagh!

 

Edited February 14 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar, more information

[eccentric59]

Ross, you and I are doing pretty much the same things with two exceptions. First, I am using L&R cleaning and rinse solutions in my ultrasonic, instead of naphtha, and second, I demagnetize the movement once it's reassembled. I wonder if you are exposing the parts to magnetism somewhere in your work area. Or, as others have suggested, the timing method itself is the problem. Perhaps you could post a video of a recently serviced escapement. It should be pretty obvious if you say you are only achieving half the normal amplitude.

[Nucejoe]

You risk loosing shellac in ultrasonic regardless of  chemistry of  cleaning solution.

 Shellac doesn't get a chance to dissolve with a quick dip into lighter fluid ,   dip a tooth pic ( sharp end)  in lighter fluid to peg pallet face with, ( rotate the toothpick )   repeat pegging  5 to 10 times, stick fork pivots into the tooth pic, rotate the toothpic,  rinse for few seconds, put the fork in a bottle with lid to retard  lighter fluid evaporation cuz air moisture condences to water if evaporation is quick.

Close inspection of the clean  under high magnification is a good pracrice.

Balance complete shouldn't go in ultrasonic, ought to get cleand by hand.

rgds

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I would test the ultrasonic cleaner to see if it is working properly. Perform a foil test to ascertain that your ultrasonic is performing adequately. 

To do this, fill the tank with water up to the recommended level. Next, cut a piece of regular kitchen aluminium foil such that it doesn't touch the walls of your tank. Smooth out any wrinkles in the foil with a soft cloth. Then power on your ultrasonic and lower the foil into the water, making sure that it doesn't touch the sides or bottom of the tank. Hold it there for 1 minute and remove it. The foil should be evenly peppered with tiny dents and some spots would even have holes punched through.

What type of jars are you using for the cleaning fluids? If the glass is too thick, there won't be sufficient ultrasonic energy to do a proper job.

 

[nevenbekriev]

Ross, there are things that You for sure don't do right, and here I will try to poin to them.

The first one is that You just think that arter cleaning and reassembling, with the putting finally the balance back in the movement, this is the end of the whole process and the amplitude should be great, and there is nothing more to do but hope this will be so every tume. Well, as You see, there are cases when the amplitude is not good. Why is this? 'Im I not cleaning good enough?'. Such thoughts are showing that something is missing in You understanding of the whole thing...

The normal logic is:

I am having lo amplitude, then I should search why. The first thing to know is that the main reason for lo amplitude is losses in the balance assembly. So, I must check for losses. This means to do the free oscillations test. The result will confirm the losses or not. If losses confirmed, then I must understand where the they are - in the bearings, in the hairspring or so on. If the test is good, then I should move to the escapement function, especilaay if there is good drop lock and normal draw to the banking pins and so on - I will check everything to the main spring to sort out what is wrong. In other words, the watch repair is not only cleaning and lubrication, but it needs full understanding of what happens in a watch movement and knollage how to check everything.

Then, the timing machine...

I will not stop claiming that one must not trust the amplitude reading from the timing machine. The amplitude is seen with naked eye. Especially in the older watches with balance with two spokes, the first thing to see when look at the balance oscillating is the amplitude. It doesn't need even time to calcilate, You just see it. It is a little bit harder when the balance is with 3 spokes and much more harder when 4 spokes, but still if You need to know the amplitude, You can go without timgrapher. At least, You can check if the timegrapher readings are close to the truth and thus know to trust it or not in every different case.

[Waggy]

Ross, it must be frustrating as I know how hard you try to do things correctly. It's strange that your before and after amplitudes are so different. Even if your timing machine was incorrect this error would be systemic and present before and after cleaning and cancel out, ie you are looking at a relative change in amplitude, not an absolute one. As the problem seems to extend across different makes and styles I think we can rule out an issue with the movements themselves (with the exception that Seikos are notoriously low amplitudes compared to their swiss counterparts).

Before I got my watch cleaner I followed a similar process to you and the glass jars I used looked similar:

• 5 mins in fairy liquid/water solution at 60 oC in ultrasonic, this is key for removing dirt and debris and loosening up the gunky old oil and grease
• Place large parts and closed baskets on paper towel to absorb 90% of water/soap solution
• A quick dip in IPA (literally a second or two) to remove remaining water
• 5 mins in naphtha at 60 oC in ultrasonic, this will remove oil and grease
• Place large parts and closed baskets on paper towel to absorb 90% of naphtha
• Separate out anything with shellac and place these in hexane (you could use one/B-dip or Essence of Renata, which I can't get access to where I live)
• Put remaining parts 5 mins in IPA at 60 oC in ultrasonic, remove residual naphtha and the oil that is dissolved in it which will re-deposit (ie be left behind) when it evaporates

I think the above may be overkill and others may have valid comments on timings/temperatures/sequence etc, but this seemed to work well for me, albeit a little labor intensive.

One quick thing you could do is to shake up your naphtha and then take a few sample drops and place on a mirror and after it evaporates you can see what is left behind, you can then see if you need to change it more or add an additional step to remove the liquid naphtha before it evaporates leaving behind the gunk it previously dissolved.

Another question, I assume you clean the balance on the main plate? If so do you leave the shock jewels/chaton in place or remove them prior to cleaning. I found that if they were left in place during the cleaning process the fluids could not get inside the jewel to clean them. I now reinstall the balance onto the mainplate and then remove the upper and lower shock jewels and let the jewels soak in their own little hotel size jam jar of naphtha whilst I clean the rest of the watch parts (including the balance) as per the recipe above, this way the jewels and chaton get a good clean and the pivots of the balance are open for the fluids to get at in the ultrasonic. After everything is dried you can then replace the jewels, with the knowledge they are clean.

Sorry if it sounds like I am teaching you to suck eggs :), but maybe something will spark some inspiration?

 

Edited February 15 by Waggy

[rossjackson01]

6 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

Ross, you and I are doing pretty much the same things with two exceptions. First, I am using L&R cleaning and rinse solutions in my ultrasonic, instead of naphtha, and second, I demagnetize the movement once it's reassembled. I wonder if you are exposing the parts to magnetism somewhere in your work area. Or, as others have suggested, the timing method itself is the problem. Perhaps you could post a video of a recently serviced escapement. It should be pretty obvious if you say you are only achieving half the normal amplitude.

Yes. I do demagnetise. Forgot toe mention that. Thank you.

Will make a video later today to show that problem.

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

You risk loosing shellac in ultrasonic regardless of  chemistry of  cleaning solution.

 Shellac doesn't get a chance to dissolve with a quick dip into lighter fluid ,   dip a tooth pic ( sharp end)  in lighter fluid to peg pallet face with, ( rotate the toothpick )   repeat pegging  5 to 10 times, stick fork pivots into the tooth pic, rotate the toothpic,  rinse for few seconds, put the fork in a bottle with lid to retard  lighter fluid evaporation cuz air moisture condences to water if evaporation is quick.

Close inspection of the clean  under high magnification is a good pracrice.

Balance complete shouldn't go in ultrasonic, ought to get cleand by hand.

rgds

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Balance will be cleaned by hand in future

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I would test the ultrasonic cleaner to see if it is working properly. Perform a foil test to ascertain that your ultrasonic is performing adequately. 

To do this, fill the tank with water up to the recommended level. Next, cut a piece of regular kitchen aluminium foil such that it doesn't touch the walls of your tank. Smooth out any wrinkles in the foil with a soft cloth. Then power on your ultrasonic and lower the foil into the water, making sure that it doesn't touch the sides or bottom of the tank. Hold it there for 1 minute and remove it. The foil should be evenly peppered with tiny dents and some spots would even have holes punched through.

What type of jars are you using for the cleaning fluids? If the glass is too thick, there won't be sufficient ultrasonic energy to do a proper job.

 

Everything does clean well. Really dirty bracelets etc are wonderful when I have finished. Foil check leaves holes.

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Ross, there are things that You for sure don't do right, and here I will try to poin to them.

The first one is that You just think that arter cleaning and reassembling, with the putting finally the balance back in the movement, this is the end of the whole process and the amplitude should be great, and there is nothing more to do but hope this will be so every tume. Well, as You see, there are cases when the amplitude is not good. Why is this? 'Im I not cleaning good enough?'. Such thoughts are showing that something is missing in You understanding of the whole thing...

The normal logic is:

I am having lo amplitude, then I should search why. The first thing to know is that the main reason for lo amplitude is losses in the balance assembly. So, I must check for losses. This means to do the free oscillations test. The result will confirm the losses or not. If losses confirmed, then I must understand where the they are - in the bearings, in the hairspring or so on. If the test is good, then I should move to the escapement function, especilaay if there is good drop lock and normal draw to the banking pins and so on - I will check everything to the main spring to sort out what is wrong. In other words, the watch repair is not only cleaning and lubrication, but it needs full understanding of what happens in a watch movement and knollage how to check everything.

Then, the timing machine...

I will not stop claiming that one must not trust the amplitude reading from the timing machine. The amplitude is seen with naked eye. Especially in the older watches with balance with two spokes, the first thing to see when look at the balance oscillating is the amplitude. It doesn't need even time to calcilate, You just see it. It is a little bit harder when the balance is with 3 spokes and much more harder when 4 spokes, but still if You need to know the amplitude, You can go without timgrapher. At least, You can check if the timegrapher readings are close to the truth and thus know to trust it or not in every different case.

Assembly. Wheel run smoothly. Escape wheel usually 'sings'.

Hairspring sight is usually concentric. No touching springs. 

Jewels are clean and oil sparingly applied. I'm good at low oiling now. I do not over oil, honest.

Timegrapher is OK. I have two watches that are never touched. Both read full level when tested. Breitling. 1s. 260 Amplitude. BE 0.2. Minutes later. Next watch worked by me . Rubbish!

47 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Ross, it must be frustrating as I know how hard you try to do things correctly. It's strange that your before and after amplitudes are so different. Even if your timing machine was incorrect this error would be systemic and present before and after cleaning and cancel out, ie you are looking at a relative change in amplitude, not an absolute one. As the problem seems to extend across different makes and styles I think we can rule out an issue with the movements themselves (with the exception that Seikos are notoriously low amplitudes compared to their swiss counterparts).

Before I got my watch cleaner I followed a similar process to you and the glass jars I used looked similar:

• 5 mins in fairy liquid/water solution at 60 oC in ultrasonic, this is key for removing dirt and debris and loosening up the gunky old oil and grease
• Place large parts and closed baskets on paper towel to absorb 90% of water/soap solution
• A quick dip in IPA (literally a second or two) to remove remaining water
• 5 mins in naphtha at 60 oC in ultrasonic, this will remove oil and grease
• Place large parts and closed baskets on paper towel to absorb 90% of naphtha
• Separate out anything with shellac and place these in hexane (you could use one/B-dip or Essence of Renata, which I can't get access to where I live)
• Put remaining parts 5 mins in IPA at 60 oC in ultrasonic, remove residual naphtha and the oil that is dissolved in it which will re-deposit (ie be left behind) when it evaporates

I think the above may be overkill and others may have valid comments on timings/temperatures/sequence etc, but this seemed to work well for me, albeit a little labor intensive.

One quick thing you could do is to shake up your naphtha and then take a few sample drops and place on a mirror and after it evaporates you can see what is left behind, you can then see if you need to change it more or add an additional step to remove the liquid naphtha before it evaporates leaving behind the gunk it previously dissolved.

Another question, I assume you clean the balance on the main plate? If so do you leave the shock jewels/chaton in place or remove them prior to cleaning. I found that if they were left in place during the cleaning process the fluids could not get inside the jewel to clean them. I now reinstall the balance onto the mainplate and then remove the upper and lower shock jewels and let the jewels soak in their own little hotel size jam jar of naphtha whilst I clean the rest of the watch parts (including the balance) as per the recipe above, this way the jewels and chaton get a good clean and the pivots of the balance are open for the fluids to get at in the ultrasonic. After everything is dried you can then replace the jewels, with the knowledge they are clean.

Sorry if it sounds like I am teaching you to suck eggs :), but maybe something will spark some inspiration?

 

I do 99% of your system. As you can see. Never put into water. Only items in water are case and bracelet which are ultrasonic cleaned in water and washing soap. Dried with leaving on kitchen paper. Blown air.

Lighter fluid is replaced every 3rd watch.

Jewels now cleaned as your system. After initial clean. Removed and then cleaned and into separate marked container for each upper and lower. Just in case.

Not an egg suck. Just as it should be.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

All items in baskets and into jar 1 (lighter fluid). Jar into warm water in Ultrasonic machine. 3 cycles of 2 minutes.

Shellac items removed. Tweezer dipped into Isopropyl and liquid dropped onto items by opening of tweezers. Blow dry with hand air bellow after 20 seconds. Watched carefully to see iIsopropyl being evaporated around shellac asap.

All other items into jar 2 Isopropyl. 3 cycles of 2 minutes .

All items.  Blow dry in heater 10 minutes.

story that I'm not quite grasping all of this so it appears to be that you using three separate jars of the lighter fluid of two minutes each followed by three jars of the alcohol for two minutes each and this isn't right at all

then despite the cautions and I don't use lighter fluid I know others do on the group. But as I said before I run everything through the ultrasonic and I don't have issues with the jewels falling out.

So let's pretend lighter fluid is a watch cleaning product which it's not really. But it's your cleaning product I would run it for at least four minutes. then you would rule over the first jar into the second jar then into the third jar all of lighter fluid. The purpose of this is that the first jar of lighter fluid your poor cleaner would clean off aggressively and become very dirty and as you go from jar jar your reducing the bad stuff on the plates. Then the isopropyl rinse is just a rinse off the lighter fluid and I probably wouldn't you run that in the ultrasonic I would just swirl it around for a little bit the rinse off the lighter fluid and go right to the dryer.

If you're using a commercial product you would do a cleaning cycle first. then typically two separate rinses and the only reason why we normally use alcohol is issues with the rinse drying. They change the properties so basically it doesn't draw I-had it in my hairdryer blowing across it and the  plates for nice and hot too hot to even hold and the rinse was still there because it's environmentally safe now. That's why use the isopropyl as just a final rinse so I wouldn't even run an ultrasonic I'd concentrate on just the lighter fluid and then if you can figure out how to buy some commercial fluids  They would be so much better for you to be using. But it is what you have

 

9 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Oils 9010, D5 and Molykote DX. If you can see it, it is too much.

16 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

jewelss are clean and oil sparingly applied. I'm good at low oiling now. I do not over oil, honest.

I see have been influenced by old-school watchmaking. When I was in school I was told if you could see the oil you had too much that's old school. What they discovered is old-school isn't enough lubrication.

your oil choices are interesting you have a super light oil and the super heavy oil.

Then I assume you're oiling the escapement with the 9010? I would like to know exactly how you do that and yes it's extremely critical at this be done right it's amazing how much amplitude can be lost by not lubricating the escapement correctly.

now how much oil should you use in your jewels? Old school would be the top picture which is now considered unacceptable

now let's find another picture of the confusion of lubrication as the minimum here almost could pass as the unacceptable in the picture up above

then what is considered unacceptable basically putting the oil any place except where it's supposed to be and you still have to be able to see the top of the pivots

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

@rossjackson01 

Not just the balance, clean the fork by hand also.

  Aluminium test provides enough evidance to conclude that ultrasonic removes shellac, it can even damage pivots, so whenever you put balance or fork pallets in ultrasonic you loose shellac thus  jewels  can move/misalign.

 Put a damaged fork in ultrasonic and compare before and after pictures, loss of shellac will be the conclusion.

Rgds

 

 

 

 

[rossjackson01]

20 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

story that I'm not quite grasping all of this so it appears to be that you using three separate jars of the lighter fluid of two minutes each followed by three jars of the alcohol for two minutes each and this isn't right at all

then despite the cautions and I don't use lighter fluid I know others do on the group. But as I said before I run everything through the ultrasonic and I don't have issues with the jewels falling out.

So let's pretend lighter fluid is a watch cleaning product which it's not really. But it's your cleaning product I would run it for at least four minutes. then you would rule over the first jar into the second jar then into the third jar all of lighter fluid. The purpose of this is that the first jar of lighter fluid your poor cleaner would clean off aggressively and become very dirty and as you go from jar jar your reducing the bad stuff on the plates. Then the isopropyl rinse is just a rinse off the lighter fluid and I probably wouldn't you run that in the ultrasonic I would just swirl it around for a little bit the rinse off the lighter fluid and go right to the dryer.

If you're using a commercial product you would do a cleaning cycle first. then typically two separate rinses and the only reason why we normally use alcohol is issues with the rinse drying. They change the properties so basically it doesn't draw I-had it in my hairdryer blowing across it and the  plates for nice and hot too hot to even hold and the rinse was still there because it's environmentally safe now. That's why use the isopropyl as just a final rinse so I wouldn't even run an ultrasonic I'd concentrate on just the lighter fluid and then if you can figure out how to buy some commercial fluids  They would be so much better for you to be using. But it is what you have

 

I see have been influenced by old-school watchmaking. When I was in school I was told if you could see the oil you had too much that's old school. What they discovered is old-school isn't enough lubrication.

your oil choices are interesting you have a super light oil and the super heavy oil.

Then I assume you're oiling the escapement with the 9010? I would like to know exactly how you do that and yes it's extremely critical at this be done right it's amazing how much amplitude can be lost by not lubricating the escapement correctly.

now how much oil should you use in your jewels? Old school would be the top picture which is now considered unacceptable

now let's find another picture of the confusion of lubrication as the minimum here almost could pass as the unacceptable in the picture up above

then what is considered unacceptable basically putting the oil any place except where it's supposed to be and you still have to be able to see the top of the pivots

 

 

 

Thank you John.

baskets into jar of lighter fluid. Jar 1.

Jar 1 into Ultrasonic machine containing water. Level above lighter fluid.

Ultrasonic Switched on for 2 minute cycle. This is the only setting. When stopped, leave jar 1 in situ. Press start again. 2 minute cycle. When stopped. repeat for cycle 3.

End of lighter fluid cycle.

All items and baskets removed from Jar 1. Placed on Kitchen paper and blow dried.

 

Isopropyl cycle

all items and baskets, except shellac items, into Jar 2. Ultrasonic machine containing water. Level above Isopropyl  fluid.

Ultrasonic Switched on for 2 minute cycle. This is the only setting. When stopped, leave jar 2 in situ. Press start again. 2 minute cycle. When stopped. repeat for cycle 3.

End of Isopropyl cycle.

All items remove and placed into warm air blower area for 10 minutes. Remove from basket and placed on kitchen paper. Each item check before placing into holding box.

 

Oiling

My oiling for posts is as the 'ideal'. I am very careful to observe your diagrams. Saw them early and have used that as my system.

My oiling for jewels is as per the green tick. Honest.

Escape wheel jewels 9010. All jewel 9010. 

Posts, rotation areas D5

Contact rubbing areas. DX

Every area is always dabbed with Rodico. No Rodico is accidentally left.

 

Final rinse. Your are saying no ultrasonic for Isopropyl. However the balance is not receiving anything of Isopropyl ultrasonic. I still get the problem

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

@rossjackson01 

Not just the balance, clean the fork by hand also.

  Aluminium test provides enough evidance to conclude that ultrasonic removes shellac, it can even damage pivots, so whenever you put balance or fork pallets in ultrasonic you loose shellac thus  jewels  can move/misalign.

 Put a damaged fork in ultrasonic and compare before and after pictures, loss of shellac will be the conclusion.

Rgds

 

 

 

 

Thank you. That I do. Hand clean both. Check for shellac problems under the microscope I watch both as I dry them in the little container.

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

Aluminium test provides enough evidance to conclude that ultrasonic removes shellac, it can even damage pivots, so whenever you put balance or fork pallets in ultrasonic you loose shellac thus  jewels  can move/misalign.

 Put a damaged fork in ultrasonic and compare before and after pictures, loss of shellac will be the conclusion.

we need to get you onto the commercial watch forums to spread the word to all the professional watchmakers that they're destroying the watches.  maybe you should start a YouTube channel and educate the consumer to the stupidity of professional watchmakers still using ultrasonic machines.

 

3 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

baskets into jar of lighter fluid. Jar 1.

Jar 1 into Ultrasonic machine containing water. Level above lighter fluid.

Ultrasonic Switched on for 2 minute cycle. This is the only setting. When stopped, leave jar 1 in situ. Press start again. 2 minute cycle. When stopped. repeat for cycle 3.

End of lighter fluid cycle.

All items and baskets removed from Jar 1. Placed on Kitchen paper and blow dried.

that's a interesting procedure and it's really interesting. normally and watch cleaning you have an initial bath of something and things go into the solution normally this would be a cleaning product better designed at putting things into the solution. Now you have your watch parts covered with dirty solution. That is why you take it out and ideally have a spinning cleaning machine the spin it off or put it on your paper towel like I used to do the wick off some of the dirty solution. Then you put it in the next jar which is cleaner than the first jar. So with each separate bath each your reducing the concentration of bad stuff that's all over the plates. then did follow up with a final alcohol rinse and dry but that's not what you're doing maybe some more jars would be in order and a little longer than two minutes because that just isn't enough time.

11 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Every area is always dabbed with Rodico. No Rodico is accidentally left.

as a lot of people that frown on that at all anywhere. I would try to minimize contact with a clean watch especially anything that involves pivots or jewels. I saw a review for  the witschi watch expert number one where the person commented about cleaning the balance pivots with that nifty substance and noticed a decrease in amplitude. So it's a wonderful substance but I would keep it away from the pivots.

12 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Escape wheel jewels 9010. All jewel 9010. 

personally have liked to see a slightly heavier oil but you still haven't answered a question the pallet fork as pivots and pallet stones how do you lubricate those?

 

[rossjackson01]

10s 153 Ampitude 0.3 beat Error.  Adam's is 271 Amplitude

Runs well. Worn for a week every other week.

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

we need to get you onto the commercial watch forums to spread the word to all the professional watchmakers that they're destroying the watches.  maybe you should start a YouTube channel and educate the consumer to the stupidity of professional watchmakers still using ultrasonic machines.

 

that's a interesting procedure and it's really interesting. normally and watch cleaning you have an initial bath of something and things go into the solution normally this would be a cleaning product better designed at putting things into the solution. Now you have your watch parts covered with dirty solution. That is why you take it out and ideally have a spinning cleaning machine the spin it off or put it on your paper towel like I used to do the wick off some of the dirty solution. Then you put it in the next jar which is cleaner than the first jar. So with each separate bath each your reducing the concentration of bad stuff that's all over the plates. then did follow up with a final alcohol rinse and dry but that's not what you're doing maybe some more jars would be in order and a little longer than two minutes because that just isn't enough time.

as a lot of people that frown on that at all anywhere. I would try to minimize contact with a clean watch especially anything that involves pivots or jewels. I saw a review for  the witschi watch expert number one where the person commented about cleaning the balance pivots with that nifty substance and noticed a decrease in amplitude. So it's a wonderful substance but I would keep it away from the pivots.

personally have liked to see a slightly heavier oil but you still haven't answered a question the pallet fork as pivots and pallet stones how do you lubricate those?

 

Pallet fork. Touch exit stone with 2010. Move escape wheel 5 times, Repeat for another 5, then another five, then rotated fully few times,

Pallet stones. Not lubricated.

 

Edited February 15 by rossjackson01
More information

[JohnR725]

31 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Pallet fork. Touch exit stone with 2010. Move escape wheel 5 times, Repeat for another 5, then another five, then rotated fully few times,

Pallet stones. Not lubricated.

by the way that was a trick question and you're doing it right no oil on the pallet fork pivots. and yes that is the procedure for lubricating the escapement including you can use 9010 even though this better stuff. Because we've had in the discussion group for people didn't lubricate their escapement for whatever reason you make the suggestion and they get a spectacular improvement just by oiling the escapement.

 

[Endeavor]

There are many cooks in this kitchen

Edited February 15 by Endeavor

[Klassiker]

6 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

I am having lo amplitude, then I should search why.

100% agree.

Ross, you are the only one in a position to do the analysis, and I' m sure you have the skills to do it, too.

From what you have told us it is impossible to point to any systematic errors in your procedures. All of the suggested changes, checks and improvements to your equipment and methods are well-intentioned but premature. Analyse the watches first, find the problem, then we can talk about possible causes.

Do you understand what @nevenbekriev is saying about seeing the amplitude with the naked eye? This is really important and is not as easy as he makes it sound, but you can learn it with concentration and practice. If you have a smartphone with slo-mo, it's a lot easier. Also, do the free oscillations test he mentioned. He has described the method on here quite recently.

[Jon]

@rossjackson01It has been asked earlier in this thread, but do you remove the cap jewels and chatons from the balance and main plate prior to cleaning? This is vitally important!

As everything is being cleaned through the cleaning machine, I hand clean the pallet, chatons and caps in fresh cleaner and rinse. Some put them through the cleaning machine, but I personally don't; just my preference, as I know the caps and chatons won't get mixed up which can massively screw up your amplitude. When you oil the cap jewels and place the chaton onto the cap, does the oil ring look totally central when looking through the cap jewel and does it fill at least half of the surface area?

[Malocchio]

I don't remember if it's been asked but how about your mainspring/barrel greasing? Have you measured power reserve?