Low Amplitude from Ultrasonic cleaning?

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, Jon said:

@rossjackson01It has been asked earlier in this thread, but do you remove the cap jewels and chatons from the balance and main plate prior to cleaning? This is vitally important!

As everything is being cleaned through the cleaning machine, I hand clean the pallet, chatons and caps in fresh cleaner and rinse. Some put them through the cleaning machine, but I personally don't; just my preference, as I know the caps and chatons won't get mixed up which can massively screw up your amplitude. When you oil the cap jewels and place the chaton onto the cap, does the oil ring look totally central when looking through the cap jewel and does it fill at least half of the surface area?

I keep top and bottom jewel and chatons separate. Oil blob loos correct. Central and 70%

2 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Do you understand what @nevenbekriev is saying about seeing the amplitude with the naked eye? This is really important and is not as easy as he makes it sound, but you can learn it with concentration and practice. If you have a smartphone with slo-mo, it's a lot easier. Also, do the free oscillations test he mentioned. He has described the method on here quite recently.

Yes. I usually know before I put the watch n the timegrapher that the amplitude will be low. I now have that visual capability.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Yes. I do demagnetise. Forgot toe mention that. Thank you.

Will make a video later today to show that problem.

Balance will be cleaned by hand in future

Everything does clean well. Really dirty bracelets etc are wonderful when I have finished. Foil check leaves holes.

Assembly. Wheel run smoothly. Escape wheel usually 'sings'.

Hairspring sight is usually concentric. No touching springs. 

Jewels are clean and oil sparingly applied. I'm good at low oiling now. I do not over oil, honest.

Timegrapher is OK. I have two watches that are never touched. Both read full level when tested. Breitling. 1s. 260 Amplitude. BE 0.2. Minutes later. Next watch worked by me . Rubbish!

I do 99% of your system. As you can see. Never put into water. Only items in water are case and bracelet which are ultrasonic cleaned in water and washing soap. Dried with leaving on kitchen paper. Blown air.

Lighter fluid is replaced every 3rd watch.

Jewels now cleaned as your system. After initial clean. Removed and then cleaned and into separate marked container for each upper and lower. Just in case.

Not an egg suck. Just as it should be.

I think whatever you do change Ross just change one thing at a time, this way something very obvious might become apparent.  Lots of changes will still have you guessing what the problem was once its fixed. How about keeping the balance and fork away from the ultrasonic for a while and clean them by hand. 

And definitely do Nev's free oscillation test , i really like doing that. The balance is such a low torque assembly relying on just that little flick from the fork to keep it running. It doesn't take very much to stop it in its tracks.

Edited February 15 by Neverenoughwatches

[rossjackson01]

As a matter on note. Just installed a balance to an citizen 8200. All wheels spin. Cleans sound of escape turning. Pallet not oiled. Jewel of escape oiled, top and bottom. Good 70% visual. I could see before I started timing that it would be low amplitude. However I have now spent 2 hours timing.

Result

0s. 187 Ampli ... flaming....  tude. 0.2ms BE. I'm good with every other part. Amplitude hates me.

 

 

BIG NOTE

Thank you for all the help every one. Learning so much from your replies. Special thanks you you John. 

I will get there.

Need a break. See you all tomorrow.

Edited February 15 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

we need to get you onto the commercial watch forums to spread the word to all the professional watchmakers that they're destroying the watches.  maybe you should start a YouTube channel and educate the consumer to the stupidity of professional watchmakers still using ultrasonic machines.

 

that's a interesting procedure and it's really interesting. normally and watch cleaning you have an initial bath of something and things go into the solution normally this would be a cleaning product better designed at putting things into the solution. Now you have your watch parts covered with dirty solution. That is why you take it out and ideally have a spinning cleaning machine the spin it off or put it on your paper towel like I used to do the wick off some of the dirty solution. Then you put it in the next jar which is cleaner than the first jar. So with each separate bath each your reducing the concentration of bad stuff that's all over the plates. then did follow up with a final alcohol rinse and dry but that's not what you're doing maybe some more jars would be in order and a little longer than two minutes because that just isn't enough time.

as a lot of people that frown on that at all anywhere. I would try to minimize contact with a clean watch especially anything that involves pivots or jewels. I saw a review for  the witschi watch expert number one where the person commented about cleaning the balance pivots with that nifty substance and noticed a decrease in amplitude. So it's a wonderful substance but I would keep it away from the pivots.

personally have liked to see a slightly heavier oil but you still haven't answered a question the pallet fork as pivots and pallet stones how do you lubricate those?

 

Can i just clarify that Ross is doing one wash cycle of 6 minutes and one rinse cycle of six minutes,  but yes another one or two rinse cycles are in order.

15 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

As a matter on note. Just installed a balance to an citizen 8200. All wheels spin. Cleans sound of escape turning. Pallet not oiled. Jewel of escape oiled, top and bottom. Good 70% visual. I could see before I started timing that it would be low amplitude. However I have now spent 2 hours timing.

Result

0s. 187 Ampli ... flaming....  tude. 0.2ms BE. I'm good with every other part. Amplitude hates me.

 

 

BIG NOTE

Thank you for all the help every one. Learning so much from your replies. Special thanks you you John. 

I will get there.

Need a break. See you all tomorrow.

You will find it Ross then a forehead slap will follow . Sometimes we know for sure but maybe the word convinced fits better that we have something right.  Make sure your cleaning game is on point Ross, cleaning bracelets and cases are not a surefire way to determine how well your machine is working. Firstly they tend to be very grubby and any improvement can make them seem perceptionally sparkling . And secondly cases and bracelets are placed directly in the ultrasonic tank.  Watch parts are not, the ultrasonic waves have to penetrate the glass jars and the mesh baskets, so thats 2 extra barriers and thick glass jars are not the best for transmission of the waves. I swapped out my glass jars for lol would you believe thin baked bean tins , the difference here is a 4mm glass jar and a 0.5 mm steel tin. Steel anyways is a better material to transmit waves and the tin is 8x thinner. You can buy plastic lids for the tops, actually pringle lids fit them . These tins have been unaffected by the solutions, one has had elma ammoniated in for six months and it looks perfect inside, the lids dont particularly like the elma fumes so i have a weight on top of that one. 

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

we need to get you onto the commercial watch forums to spread the word to all the professional watchmakers that they're destroying the watches.  maybe you should start a YouTube channel and educate the consumer to the stupidity of professional watchmakers still using ultrasonic machines.

Lol someone's on form today   .

[GuyMontag]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever put a watch that is known to have a good amplitude on your timegrapher and confirmed that the amplitude reads as good?

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can i just clarify that Ross is doing one wash cycle of 6 minutes and one rinse cycle of six minutes,  but yes another one or two rinse cycles are in order.

good this saves me from running higher up in the messages to quote something. so casually when were looking at what he's doing it sounds right until you look at the fine print and realize it's not. 

cleaning actually involves removing the concentration a bad stuff off the plates. This involves multiple  a minimum of three jars and moving the watches are parts whatever from jar jar jar. four minutes per jar would be acceptable. Then  the final alcohol rinse doesn't need ultrasonic and it doesn't need a lot of time so maybe  don't really know but maybe less than the minutes you just rinsing off the lighter fluid as a final final rinse and then you can dry the whole thing.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

we need to get you onto the commercial watch forums to spread the word to all the professional watchmakers that they're destroying the watches.  maybe you should start a YouTube channel and educate the consumer to the stupidity of professional watchmakers still using ultrasonic machines.

One of the problems in watch repair is we don't have a problem , then if your watch has  an issue you have no problem, so first thing to do is ask yourself if your watch  has an iissue and you need to find out if there is an issue, then not having a timegrapher machine is your problem, so whats the problem. 

Edited February 15 by Nucejoe

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Just out of curiosity, have you ever put a watch that is known to have a good amplitude on your timegrapher and confirmed that the amplitude reads as good?

Will let you know next week. I purchased  £20 'Winner' watch brand new from ebay with this intent. 

readings  5s.   210 deg.   0.0 BE 21600 @ 52 deg.

 

Will do a complete service and let you all know of my failings.

57 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

good this saves me from running higher up in the messages to quote something. so casually when were looking at what he's doing it sounds right until you look at the fine print and realize it's not. 

cleaning actually involves removing the concentration a bad stuff off the plates. This involves multiple  a minimum of three jars and moving the watches are parts whatever from jar jar jar. four minutes per jar would be acceptable. Then  the final alcohol rinse doesn't need ultrasonic and it doesn't need a lot of time so maybe  don't really know but maybe less than the minutes you just rinsing off the lighter fluid as a final final rinse and then you can dry the whole thing.

 

 

Will do

45 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

One of the problems in watch repair is we don't have a problem , then if your watch has  an issue you have no problem, so first thing to do is ask yourself if your watch  has an iissue and you need to find out if there is an issue, then not having a timegrapher machine is your problem, so whats the problem. 

Good to laugh. Thank you 

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Will let you know next week. I purchased  £20 'Winner' watch brand new from ebay with this intent. 

readings  5s.   210 deg.   0.0 BE 21600 @ 52 deg.

another thing we have to establish as a timing procedure. I assume you using one of the Chinese 1000 machines? Because I don't remember if you said what exactly are you using for timing? Whatever it is be nice to have a picture of on the timing machine and not just looking at the watch in one position. In other words wristwatch would be nice to do dial up dial down and crown down. Then when you initially wind it up to wait out 15 minutes before you do that just you're not at the very peak of tightness.

Then they can go through and work on one watch it's a lot easier to troubleshoot something with one watch them lots of watches even if all the watches seemingly have the same problem.

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

another thing we have to establish as a timing procedure. I assume you using one of the Chinese 1000 machines? Because I don't remember if you said what exactly are you using for timing? Whatever it is be nice to have a picture of on the timing machine and not just looking at the watch in one position. In other words wristwatch would be nice to do dial up dial down and crown down. Then when you initially wind it up to wait out 15 minutes before you do that just you're not at the very peak of tightness.

Then they can go through and work on one watch it's a lot easier to troubleshoot something with one watch them lots of watches even if all the watches seemingly have the same problem.

Here is my bench. 

I move the keyboard back onto the monitor base. Take the box off the printer and place it in front of the keyboard. Lower my seat. Only then do I put the required tools in the box for use.

Timegrapher is Weishi 1000. You can just see it behind the monitor. When I am working with the seat lowered, it is clearly visible. This area is all I have for use. My total space.

Every item is put away in its relative place when I finish. Nothing is left our as you can see.

 

Edited February 15 by rossjackson01
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[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Every item is put away in its relative place when I finish.

at least your bench is currently clean. It's amazing what happens if you're not actively doing watch work. Then stuff gets piled up on the bench and soon you can't see the bench at all. then yes I saw the microphone in the picture and I can see the outline the timing machine. Just want to make sure you weren't using a phone app or some other thing where we've been led astray to problems that didn't really exist

[rossjackson01]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

at least your bench is currently clean. It's amazing what happens if you're not actively doing watch work. Then stuff gets piled up on the bench and soon you can't see the bench at all. then yes I saw the microphone in the picture and I can see the outline the timing machine. Just want to make sure you weren't using a phone app or some other thing where we've been led astray to problems that didn't really exist

John. And others who have helped. You may be asking. Why do I ask questions at this level?

I really do appreciate the time you take to try to assist me. I do read and try to take in all information. Some may think me naïve, although I am so pleased that no-one has even considered raising a concern about the level of my question. The only way I can learn is to ask a question. Perhaps someone else who is at my level but is worried about asking, will benefit. What is noticeable in the answers is the level of 'cajole'. In that, I mean all you can perceive from the answers is none criticism. What a great bunch you are.

Being totally on my own and learning such and intricate hobby, for me it is intricate. My only recourse is the internet. Thank goodness for you lot. I've got tutors, friends, facilities from all over the world. Do you realise how great that is? 

Ta

Edited February 16 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

59 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

John. And others who have helped. You may be asking. Why do I ask questions at this level?

I really do appreciate the time you take to try to assist me. I do read and try to take in all information. Some may think me naïve, although I am so pleased that no-one has even considered raising a concern about the level of my question. The only way I can learn is to ask a question. Perhaps someone else who is at my level but is worried about asking, will benefit. What is noticeable in the answers is the level of 'cajole'. In that, I mean all you can perceive from the answers is none criticism. What a great bunch you are.

Being totally on my own and learning such and intricate hobby, for me it is intricate. My only recourse is the internet. Thank goodness for you lot. I've got tutors, friends, facilities from all over the world. Do you realise how great that is? 

Ta

Ross we all got your back mate, you're a gentle lovely bloke how can anyone not like you.  And if anyone says " get a room " i shall raise annoyed looking eyebrows  

Edited February 16 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

I read through and didn't see a response so sorry if you did- have you done a test of just the balance (no fork) to see how it oscillates on its own? Set it in motion (at least 180 degrees)  and see how long it goes, both dry and lubricated.

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I read through and didn't see a response so sorry if you did- have you done a test of just the balance (no fork) to see how it oscillates on its own? Set it in motion (at least 180 degrees)  and see how long it goes, both dry and lubricated.

Sorry. I learned this early on and have always applied it. I still do that test before a build starts. I have always noticed that the oscillation, no matter which watch I am working on, is low. 10 to 15 seconds, not much oscillation. Usually less than 150 degrees. This is why I began this question. Do you think it may be the fact that I have left the balance on the plate and left it too long in the Lighter fluid whilst under Ultrasonic? 3 x 2 minutes.

Before I obtained the ultrasonic I used place all items into the lighter fluid jar and spend 10 minutes rotating it gently back and forth by hand. However the above observation was still carried out. Result was the same as I have always noticed that my Amplitude was low. After oiling, I do notice and improvement, but never to the level of what others or I  would find acceptable. Maybe 180 degrees.

I though as I get more experienced I will make it better. I can now do all other aspects of a service, not with ease, but application.

I have few more 'balance' options to try.  Gently immersion in cleaning fluid. No balance Ultrasonic. Gentle immersion in Isopropyl for under 30 seconds and dry as normal.

Result?

Cry. Don't cry.

Edited February 16 by rossjackson01
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[tomh207]

It sounds like excessive friction in the balance pivots Ross. My understanding from this group among other places is the balance should rotate for >60 seconds after being blown by a puffer.

 

Tom

[Nucejoe]

Where did this 30 seconds test come from  ? 

Thanks  in advance.

 

[nickelsilver]

Ok, I would focus on the balance assembly, its jewels, and hairspring.

 

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry. I learned this early on and have always applied it. I still do that test before a build starts. I have always noticed that the oscillation, no matter which watch I am working on, is low. 10 to 15 seconds, not much oscillation. Usually less than 150 degrees.

 

You can do the test oscillation at whatever starting amplitude you want.

 

I just took a 6497 that has been sitting "naked" either in a drawer or on the bench for years (on the bench, uncovered, at least 5 years). Dust everywhere, the pallet fork had dust bunnies on it! Pulled the fork out, balance back in, pulled the balance around to give 180 degrees and released it. The balance oscillated for 50 seconds; though it had dropped to about 20 degrees after 30s- but still kept moving to 50s.  The oil in the Incablocs looked surprisingly good especially considering it was serviced perhaps 14 years ago.

 

This is just to illustrate what a manky watch can do on the balance test. Also just grabbed an ETA 2778 (21,600 bph vs 18K on the 6497) out of the parts drawer; bone dry (i.e. old dried oil) in the Incablocs. It did a good 40s with the fork out. As above, if puffing, initial amplitude may be much higher than 180 degrees, so you would see longer oscillation time. But something is amiss with the balance on your pieces.

 

With fork in 6497 ran with 250 amplitude in its manky state, the 2778 hit 260, both full wind minus 8-10 clicks.

Edited February 16 by nickelsilver

[Nucejoe]

 You might have overly reduced the end shakes accross the board, What end shake you think you have adjusted your balances/ other pivots to.

What happens if you increase the end shake ? 

Do you usually lift one side of the balance rim to check for shakes ?  and if you do how much force do you apply to balance rim ? 

Hard to agree with the pivot bent story as you face this issue accross the board.

Its either your technique/ dexterity  or your machines. not the pivots/ balances you work on. 

Rgds

[Malocchio]

I used to use Renata for shellaced parts. It's shellac safe and very volatile. My routine was to put the parts soaking in a glass jar and then, sometimes days later, run a cycle in ultrasonic. I also hand cleaned the pivots after soaking. I had the balance attached to the mainplate and with a peg wood (with a small hole in the end and tip dipped in Renata) did some twisting motion. I also had to gently prevent the balance wheel from turning with a finger. My experience with cheap ultrasonic was that it didn't do much good for dried gunk with isopropanol. Especially pinion leaves were often left dirty. 

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry. I learned this early on and have always applied it. I still do that test before a build starts. I have always noticed that the oscillation, no matter which watch I am working on, is low. 10 to 15 seconds, not much oscillation

Why didn't you tell us about this at the beginning? You've been advised at least twice to conduct this test over the last few days, without giving us feedback. Sorry to get on your back, but if you don't listen, the less patient among us (speaking for myself here) will give up offering advice. Here endeth the sermon.

Now you have located one problem (there may be others) in the balance assembly focus your attention there. What is causing the increased friction? Go through a systematic checklist of the possible causes (freedom of moving parts, i.e. shake, condition of bearing surfaces, hairspring movement...). To take the bearing surfaces as an example. After cleaning and before assembly and lubrication, you need to inspect the jewels with a high-powered loupe (min. x10 but really x15 or x20) or a microscope and good lighting to make sure they are perfectly clean. The hole jewels are best inspected with back-lighting. No stains, spots or flakes. No cracks or chips. The cap jewel surfaces should reflect uniformly white like a mirror when you catch the light right. The pivots need to be bright and shiny, scratch-free and cylindrical. No remnants of cleaning fluids. If you do these checks and everything is perfect, you can immediately stop speculating about your cleaning methods. If on the other hand you find dirt, stains or sticky residues, it's still a success, because you've narrowed it down again. If you are not sure about anything you find, take pictures and show us.

[rossjackson01]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

Its either your technique/ dexterity  or your machines. not the pivots/ balances you work on. 

Rgds

Agree with you. Hence my enquiries. Maybe it's the wake up call I need.

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

Why didn't you tell us about this at the beginning? You've been advised at least twice to conduct this test over the last few days, without giving us feedback. Sorry to get on your back, but if you don't listen, the less patient among us (speaking for myself here) will give up offering advice. Here endeth the sermon.

Now you have located one problem (there may be others) in the balance assembly focus your attention there. What is causing the increased friction? Go through a systematic checklist of the possible causes (freedom of moving parts, i.e. shake, condition of bearing surfaces, hairspring movement...). To take the bearing surfaces as an example. After cleaning and before assembly and lubrication, you need to inspect the jewels with a high-powered loupe (min. x10 but really x15 or x20) or a microscope and good lighting to make sure they are perfectly clean. The hole jewels are best inspected with back-lighting. No stains, spots or flakes. No cracks or chips. The cap jewel surfaces should reflect uniformly white like a mirror when you catch the light right. The pivots need to be bright and shiny, scratch-free and cylindrical. No remnants of cleaning fluids. If you do these checks and everything is perfect, you can immediately stop speculating about your cleaning methods. If on the other hand you find dirt, stains or sticky residues, it's still a success, because you've narrowed it down again. If you are not sure about anything you find, take pictures and show us.

Points taken. Will apply. Sorry if I have offended. Thank you

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 You might have overly reduced the end shakes accross the board, What end shake you think you have adjusted your balances/ other pivots to.

What happens if you increase the end shake ? 

Do you usually lift one side of the balance rim to check for shakes ?  and if you do how much force do you apply to balance rim ? 

Hard to agree with the pivot bent story as you face this issue accross the board.

Its either your technique/ dexterity  or your machines. not the pivots/ balances you work on. 

Rgds

I always check end shake when disassembling and assembling. I use a loupe and oiler. Only have enough skill to check by a gentle lift to see.  Aware of the lesson by Mark about the balance needing lift from the plate. Never had a need to do a jewel alteration. I purchased a cheap Jewelling tool to be able to do just that. Looking forward to that operation.

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Where did this 30 seconds test come from  ? 

Thanks  in advance.

 

Was told in various YouTube videos never to allow shellac to be in isopropyl more that 60 seconds. Hence my caution of 30 seconds. It's not a rule, just my application as I did not want to have to learn to re-shellac. Way beyond me at present.

Edited February 16 by rossjackson01
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[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry. I learned this early on and have always applied it. I still do that test before a build starts. I have always noticed that the oscillation, no matter which watch I am working on, is low. 10 to 15 seconds, not much oscillation. Usually less than 150 degrees. 

10 to 15 seconds , is this definitely without the pallet fork in so the balance can oscillate freely on it's own ?

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

It sounds like excessive friction in the balance pivots Ross. My understanding from this group among other places is the balance should rotate for >60 seconds after being blown by a puffer.

 

Tom

A good puff from the blower should result in quite a bit over 1 minute.  I stick to Nev's more consistent method now of releasing the balance from a 180 ° angle from rest , he suggests the hairspring should pull 100-200 oscillations from there.

[rossjackson01]

18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

10 to 15 seconds , is this definitely without the pallet fork in so the balance can oscillate freely on it's own ?

A good puff from the blower should result in quite a bit over 1 minute.  I stick to Nev's more consistent method now of releasing the balance from a 180 ° angle from rest , he suggests the hairspring should pull 100-200 oscillations from there.

Never.

OK. It's what I need to aim for.

Tom. Without pallet fork. 10 to 15 seconds. Never had 60s. It's what I need to aim for.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, rossjackson01 said:

Never.

OK. It's what I need to aim for.

Tom. Without pallet fork. 10 to 15 seconds. Never had 60s. It's what I need to aim for.

Then this is definitely one of the issues you are having ross, most of that energy the mainspring is producing coming through the train is being killed by a balance that doesn't want to oscillate. As nickelsilver said, focus on the balance assembly, maybe do the test first and deal with getting the balance running right before continuing any other part of the build. Make that your priority for now, so as soon as you are at that stage get some pictures posted and describe exactly whats happening. We can all get our heads together and get this area fixed before looking at anything else.