Timegrapher Issue

[Folkvisor]

Hi

I am working on a 6497 and it works well - even keeps good time - but when I put it on the time grapher it tells me it is gaining 90 seconds a day when, in actual fact, it isn't.

I find this a bit puzzling. Any ideas? 

Dave

[dadistic]

Hey, good to see you on the forum. 

Make sure you're checking all the positions, the watch could have very different rates in each position. Dial up, dial down, crown up, crown down, etc. 

Cheers!

[Folkvisor]

Ah, yes. I should have known that. Thank you.

[Paul80]

If it is all over the place depending on its position, that could be indicating you have an issue somewhere, worn pivots, or gears touching or even too much oil could all affect performance depending on position of the movement.

Not saying that is you problem just a reminder to for something else to check.

[Folkvisor]

Frankly, it's a mystery. The watch works well but the dots are all over the screen when all the readings are about 90%. Strange.

[Nucejoe]

 Do you leave the watch on timegrapher long enough to stablize, you might be looking at its transient state. 

How about testing your timegrapher with an accurate watch.

I gather you have cased the movement and the whole watch goes on TG.

 

[Folkvisor]

Yes, I am wondering if it could be a bent pivot or something like that. 

Thank you, Paul

 

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Do you leave the watch on timegrapher long enough to stablize, you might be looking at its transient state. 

How about testing your timegrapher with an accurate watch.

I gather you have cased the movement and the whole watch goes on TG.

 

It is only a timegrapher app on my iPad so it could be part of the problem; however, my SINN checks out really well. 

[mikepilk]

Could you post pics of dial up, dial down, crown down ?

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Folkvisor said:

I am working on a 6497 and it works well - even keeps good time - but when I put it on the time grapher it tells me it is gaining 90 seconds a day when, in actual fact, it isn't.

 

5 hours ago, Folkvisor said:

The watch works well but the dots are all over the screen when all the readings are about 90%. Strange.

 

1 hour ago, Folkvisor said:

It is only a timegrapher app on my iPad so it could be part of the problem; however, my SINN checks out really well. 

when describing timing machine results it always helps if we can see the graphical display in other words give us pictures without pictures we get to make wild guesses and we love to make wild guesses.

then traditionally apps really don't work at all with some minor exceptions. If your app can make use of an external microphone designed to pick up watches then you have a much better chance of getting legitimate results. Traditionally OR whatever make use of an audio microphone design the pickup audio voices they were never designed a pickup watches and that has led us to lots of well basically wasted time when there was no problem other than that Was the problem. But if it's an app let's see a picture of what you're seeing rather than we get to guess what you're seeing.

 

[nickelsilver]

Keep in mind too that on a timing machine you are looking at a snapshot of the running. Ideally you would check at full wind minus an hour (wind fully, let it down a few teeth on the ratchet) and at 24h (minus about 3.5 turns of wind). And in several positions, I always do 6, 2 horizontal 4 vertical. This will give you a much better idea of the actual performance.

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Ideally you would check at full wind minus an hour (wind fully, let it down a few teeth on the ratchet)

I've heard this many times before.  Like "Full wind minus 15 minutes, or 20 minutes, or half an hour, or an hour", but I never really understood why. Fully wound minus 24 hours I can understand (I guess), but not the full wind minus "a bit".

EDIT: Oh, I agree with John, we need pictures (almost always) to be able to better contribute.

Edited August 23, 2023 by VWatchie

[Folkvisor]

I think I'll just need to bite the bullet and take the thing apart again. I have a sneaking suspicion that some end jewel oil got somewhere it shouldn't or some such thing.

[tomh207]

13 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've heard this many times before.  Like "Full wind minus 15 minutes, or 20 minutes, or half an hour, or an hour", but I never really understood why. Fully wound minus 24 hours I can understand (I guess), but not the full wind minus "a bit".

EDIT: Oh, I agree with John, we need pictures (almost always) to be able to better contribute.

I can’t remember where I saw it VWatchie but I have seen a graph of mainspring delivered torque where you see very high torque for the first hour reducing rapidly till the one hour mark. Around the one hour mark the curve flattens out and remains pretty flat until sometime after 24 hours. It will then drop off fairly precipitously when it is getting close to the power reserve limit. Maybe one of the cleverer than me folks on here can confirm or maybe even have a copy of a similar graph.

 

Tom

[rehajm]

Yes, I've observed you can sometimes 'juice' the amplitude number for a few moments by going to full wind then continuing a little pressure on the stem. I've always assumed the 15-30 minute number was to avoid that kind of reading...

[Folkvisor]

9 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Could you post pics of dial up, dial down, crown down ?

I don't have anything that would allow taking such measurements, so...nope, sorry

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, rehajm said:

Yes, I've observed you can sometimes 'juice' the amplitude number for a few moments by going to full wind then continuing a little pressure on the stem. I've always assumed the 15-30 minute number was to avoid that kind of reading...

reason why there's a variety of numbers is it depends upon who made the watch and the watch itself. If you have software or a timing machine they can do a time plot another way to look at timing results and you wind your watch up nice and tight you will initially see a much higher amplitude then which you really want to have. It's one of the reasons you can take set mainsprings and get them to work by widening them up nice and tight especially if they're really really set they will initially have power but they will lose it really really fast. So basically the watch companies have a time span it's not an exact number is just do not time when you wind it up tight let it run for little bit the settled down and lose that excessive energy. Otherwise you may get weird timing results because you have too much power

then watch companies are not usually obsessed with amplitude like this group is there more obsessed with timekeeping. But typically it does depend on the watch companies Omega will take down to I think 160° at the end of 24 hours it depends upon the particular watch. So the watch companies at 24 hours like to see a certain minimum but what they really want to see is timekeeping does the watch keep time at the end of 24 hours.

Then if they get really picky though give you and isochronal error. In other words your watch at full he wound up versus 24 hours later how close is that timekeeping.

4 minutes ago, Folkvisor said:

I don't have anything that would allow taking such measurements, so...nope, sorry

okay I believe you said you using an app and I'm guessing you just drop the watch on the phone and your often timing? Can you give us a picture of the watch on your timing device or if you can't do that can you at least tell us what apps are using so we can go and look up what it looks like what exactly are you seeing of that we can't see because we really do need to understand what it is you're using and what it looks like when it's running otherwise especially with apps were usually wasting our time at least based on past experience.

Edited August 23, 2023 by JohnR725

[Folkvisor]

Someone suggested there might be some oil on the hairspring so I'm going to clean it and see if it makes a difference.

After cleaning the balance spring I have 2 nicely parallel lines. But how do I put them closer together - not that it matters - I'm happy with the results.

I looked at the hairspring under my microscope and I couldn't find anything but oil wouldn't necessarily show up.

[JohnR725]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:02 AM, Folkvisor said:

6497

1 hour ago, Folkvisor said:

I have 2 nicely parallel lines. But how do I put them closer together - not that it matters

by the way is this an actual 6497 Swiss or a Chinese clone? New versus old etc. because yes it does make a minor difference.

I will assume it's something newer the reason versus new versus old the newer ones the stud is mounted on something that can be moved and all you have to do is move it a little bit in one direction or the other to see if the lines get closer together. Then in moving it you'll probably move the regulator and then you'll have to touch up the regulator

here is an image it talks about all of this

 

 

 

[Folkvisor]

It is an actual Swiss ETA 6497-1 movement.

Sounds good, I'll see what I can do.

[Folkvisor]

BTW, thank you everyone for all your comments and help. Muchly appreciated!!!

[Nucejoe]

9 hours ago, Folkvisor said:

After cleaning the balance spring I have 2 nicely parallel lines. But how do I put them closer together - not that it matters - I'm happy with the results.

It does matter technically.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

 

 

 

Question,

ref the graph above

Once put in beat we see a gain in amplitude,so

Does the area between the two lines represent loss of energy due to impulse being out of beat? 

 

 

 

On 8/23/2023 at 6:59 PM, tomh207 said:

I can’t remember where I saw it VWatchie but I have seen a graph of mainspring delivered torque where you see very high torque for the first hour reducing rapidly till the one hour mark. Around the one hour mark the curve flattens out and remains pretty flat until sometime after 24 hours. It will then drop off fairly precipitously when it is getting close to the power reserve limit. Maybe one of the cleverer than me folks on here can confirm or maybe even have a copy of a similar graph.

 

Tom

 If you hand wind your watch ( up to 90% full )  two to three times daily, you get a near constant torque supply to the escapement.

( Good tip for wearers of hand winds)

In case of self winders, the auto device winds as you move your hands, thus above said graph would be near linear during daytime, but its rest time for the autowinder as we hit the sack, so the graph holds true when we sleep. 

 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Folkvisor said:

It is an actual Swiss ETA 6497-1 movement.

one of the minor issues with having a 6497 is variations. So for instance if it's a modern 6497 putting it in beat is easy because it has the etachron system as you'll notice in the attached technical sheet for this watch. I think this is the last one they printed from 2016. So putting it in beat is easy just nudge the stud holder.

To be really careful and go really slow though because it's really easy to go past and then get hopelessly lost as to where you are.

CT_6497-1_FDE_482160_11.pdf

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

To be really careful and go really slow though because it's really easy to go past and then get hopelessly lost as to where you are.

On my Weishi 1900, one line is blue and the other line is yellow. If/when I go past these lines switch palaces which is a bit helpful. So, it would seem the machine can differentiate between the two beats.

[mikepilk]

36 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

On my Weishi 1900, one line is blue and the other line is yellow. If/when I go past these lines switch palaces which is a bit helpful. So, it would seem the machine can differentiate between the two beats.

Unfortunately the Weishi 1000 does not have this, both lines are the same colour. Once you get about 5-6ms out, they can wrap round and look like you are in beat. That's why I always do a visual check when assembling to make sure it's not too far out.

[praezis]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

So, it would seem the machine can differentiate between the two beats

In other words: it is able to count to two  - not more. It cannot tell which is left or right swing, in or out pallet jewel.