Citizen cal. 8200A. What's that "stuff" holding the hairspring in the stud

[VWatchie]

I'm not sure this is a genuine Citizen movement as it sits in, let's call it, a very cheap "Indian Citizen". It doesn't belong to me but to an acquaintance who challenged me to get it running. Anyway, until I have a good idea about what that stuff in the stud is I'm reluctant to throw it into my cleaning machine. Any idea?

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Citizen movement as it sits in, let's call it, a very cheap "Indian Citizen".

I think somewhere in the history of citizen watch company they moved or sold or something of factory relocated to India.

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

until I have a good idea about what that stuff in the stud is I'm reluctant to throw it into my cleaning machine. Any idea?

one of the companies that pioneered gluing hairsprings was the Elgin watch company. It's done because then there's no stress on the hairspring versus using pins. Of course today they laser weld a lot of the stuff. I case in the Elgin literature whatever they use is not available to us so they recommended shellac which is sort of what that looks like. In the case of the Chinese they use some sort of substance like a glue that usually disintegrates after one or two times through the cleaning machine. Then if you're careful with epoxy you can put it all back together again.

So basically if you don't want to deal with the hairspring floating free of it stud you can't run it through anything that resembles cleaning fluid because if that's not shellac who knows what it is.

[VWatchie]

So, what you're telling me John is that I should assume it is shellac and keep it away from anything that might risk dissolving it? 

EDIT: No, you're telling me that it should be safe if it is shellac...? 

I always use IPA in my final rinse for a couple of minutes and I really worry that it will dissolve that stuff which looks like shellac.

Edited August 18, 2023 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

assume it is shellac

I really hate assuming anything but it does look like shellac? As that is something used in watch repair they would have it available or it could just be some sort of really poor glue that just looks like shellac. 

oh I found a little history online of India making watches. I don't see any technical references to innovative methods of doing things which is what perhaps will call this. although there is a possibility that this is innovative repair done by somebody else after it left a factory perhaps

https://watchesbysjx.com/2016/07/hmt-watches-the-rise-and-fall-of-indias-watchmaking-titan.html

additional information

https://thehourmarkers.com/history-has-it/hmt-watches-a-walk-down-the-memory-lane/

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by JohnR725

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I always use IPA in my final rinse for a couple of minutes and I really worry that it will dissolve that stuff which looks like shellac.

I used to do a couple of minutes final rinse in IPA, but now do just 30 seconds, as recommended for the watch cleaning machines. It's only to absorb moisture and any residue from the rinses, so 30s should be enough, and be kind to your shellac too 

 

[pent]

I've run across these in a Wakkman (Unitas movement) and another movement where the name escapes me.  Both dissolved in cleaning fluid, so you might want to err on the side of caution.  Luckily, there was a little bump left on the spring that showed me where to attach it again, which I did so with epoxy and they both worked fine afterwards.

[Malocchio]

I wasted one perfectly good Seiko 7S26 balance. I put it in IPA in ultrasonic and after I picked it up for drying the hairspring had deattached. For long I had no idea what happened but only recently found out it was glued.

[Nucejoe]

 The most likely senario is that the spring might be too short, might have broken at the stud and  re-shellaced like this. In such case you might could make some improvement, shape the terminal curve , sort out  the coils to be parralel,  etc. a fault that developes  when re-shellac ing, is often the spring is re-shellaced by a wrong proceedure, which renders the coils not parralel, then the spring ought to be twisted near the stud to make coils parralel.

These fault might be there but not meet the eye unless you are looking for them, in which case best to detach the sutd from the spring to sort out the coil  and re-shellaced stud  back on. Should you decide to go that route, let me know to provide you with a right proceedure to re-shellac the stud.

Citizen did at some point sell a inferior know how to India, many watches mostly manual wind are manufactured primarily for domestic market. 

Rgds

 

[HectorLooi]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Citizen did at some point sell a inferior know how to India, many watches mostly manual wind are manufactured primarily for domestic market. 

Yes. They are called HMT. 

https://www.hmtwatches.in/

 

[Malocchio]

10 hours ago, Malocchio said:

I wasted one perfectly good Seiko 7S26 balance. I put it in IPA in ultrasonic and after I picked it up for drying the hairspring had deattached. For long I had no idea what happened but only recently found out it was glued.

What was I thinking. Of course not IPA but Renata. It's some sort of hydrocarbon. 

[oldhippy]

Its a glue type of substance and it is a bugger to remove with out damaging the hairspring.  

[VWatchie]

7 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Its a glue type of substance and it is a bugger to remove with out damaging the hairspring.  

Do you know for sure that it is not shellac but just looks like shellac?

[rehajm]

Never one to back down from a challenge this is a situation where I’d ask everyone to look away, then prepare some tiny bath where I could soak the hairspring while the stud floated above. Perhaps one of those condiment containers for ketchup (er, sorry lads, tartar ) where the stud pokes through the lid…

[oldhippy]

14 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Do you know for sure that it is not shellac but just looks like shellac?

All I remember is it is hard. I have removed it in the past but it screws up the hairspring. I managed to cut it off using a small screwdriver blade..

[VWatchie]

I should have reported back long ago but better late than never. The "stuff in the stud" does not appear to be shellac. I rinsed it in IPA in my cleaning machine for about two minutes (including spinning off the IPA) and the stuff, likely some sort of glue, was unaffected. It could still be shellac though, as it could be some type of shellac that is less affected by IPA. I've learned that there are variations.

Anyway, if you are servicing a Citizen calibre 8200 A (really a Miyota calibre 8205), I'd say you have nothing to worry about.

[mikepilk]

27 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I should have reported back long ago but better late than never. The "stuff in the stud" does not appear to be shellac.

You could try giving it a prod with a pin. Shellac is hard and brittle, whereas glue should be softer.

(Though I guess you might get soft shellac?) 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

You could try giving it a prod with a pin. Shellac is hard and brittle, whereas glue should be softer.

(Though I guess you might get soft shellac?) 

Thanks, I tried that but couldn't really conclude anything from it. The pin (a sharpened old oiler) did make some tiny marks in it but still, I wasn't sure.