How can the cannon pinion gear be widened to reduce friction?

[Khaledabdwatch]

كيف يمكن توسيع ترس ترس المدفع لتقليل الاحتكاك؟

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, Khaledabdwatch said:

كيف يمكن توسيع ترس ترس المدفع لتقليل الاحتكاك؟

It would be nice to have a picture of the particular watch in question. Then English is the preferred language on the message board fortunately there's Google translate which Translates the list. It would help to have a picture of the problem.

How can the cannon gear trench expand to reduce friction?

 

[Klassiker]

Google Translate gives me:

"How can the cannon pinion gear be expanded to reduce friction?"

You need some very fine broaches. Then go very slowly and carefully, and test the result frequently.

[nickelsilver]

A little known technique that works great is: With the cannon pinion installed on the watch, use a pair of fine cutting pliers and squeeze the cannon pinion right in the original dent that creates the friction. It actually counterintuitively reduces the friction. Just a little squeeze goes a long way.

 

You can also broach it, as Klassiker says, but this becomes difficult to next to impossible on closed cannon pinions (most watches without center seconds).

[Klassiker]

As an aside, what is the advantage of the closed end cannon pinion? Is it cheaper to make, or gives better service, or some other reason? 

[nickelsilver]

Just now, Klassiker said:

As an aside, what is the advantage of the closed end cannon pinion? Is it cheaper to make, or gives better service, or some other reason? 

It's just good workmanship and aesthetics. The polished end looks better than a hole.

[Klassiker]

OK, understood, but why is that better than closing off the end with the minute hand?

[nickelsilver]

32 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

OK, understood, but why is that better than closing off the end with the minute hand?

To make a blind hole in a thin minute hand that would fit a cannon pinion correctly would be 100x (1000x?) times harder.

[mikepilk]

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

A little known technique that works great is: With the cannon pinion installed on the watch, use a pair of fine cutting pliers and squeeze the cannon pinion right in the original dent that creates the friction. It actually counterintuitively reduces the friction. Just a little squeeze goes a long way.

I'm trying to reason why this works? Intuitively you would  squeeze at right angles to the dent.

I try pushing it down a smoothing broach to try to push the dent out, rather than a cutting broach which would remove metal.

[nickelsilver]

20 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I'm trying to reason why this works? Intuitively you would  squeeze at right angles to the dent.

I try pushing it down a smoothing broach to try to push the dent out, rather than a cutting broach which would remove metal.

 

I can't really explain why it works, but it does. I was shown this by the fellow who inspected my pieces when I was doing Claret minute repeaters (it's like a 6 page checklist of pure ball-breakage haha). They really wanted good cannon pinion friction, but if it was a little too tight they'd make you adjust it, which is really a pain on a repeater cannon pinion. The kind guy gave me that tip, and that's how I've done it since.

 

If I don't have my cutting pliers handy I might do as you with a smoothing broach, but again, on closed cannon pinions you are either grinding down the end of your broaches to finally get the perfect bit to push the dent just right, or you need another technique.

[Nucejoe]

 A canon pinion that can be installed on the watch is likely not to be overly tight or it wouldn't have got on the center arbour.  I add a bit of oil ( not grease) and turn the minute wheel with the crown, it often turns which indicates its not overly tight , keep turning to reduce friction.  you then remove clean the parts involved, grease and instal.

Try it, you have more success than you think.

I haven't tried this on watches with chrono complication, too sensative to extra friction I imagine.

Rgds

 

Though I haven' 't studied Arabic, I think I understand some of OP's words. 

کیف  how

یمکن possible

المدفع  tube

لتقلیل reduce

الاحتکاک friction

 

Not bad ha.

 

[VWatchie]

Just to make sure. As far as I can reason, the only time it makes sense to test the cannon pinion friction is after service. In my experience, friction usually diminishes after service. That is when the cannon pinion has been thoroughly cleaned and lubricated. BTW, I always lubricate the inside of the cannon pinion rather than the centre wheel arbor. It feels like it eliminates some of the risks of getting the grease where it's not supposed to be.

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

use a pair of fine cutting pliers and squeeze the cannon pinion right in the original dent that creates the friction

It feels sort of embarrassing having to ask, but what does "a pair of fine cutting pliers" look like? Perhaps something like the picture above (link in the picture)? Any specific recommendations or advice?

Edited December 4, 2022 by VWatchie

[mikepilk]

I think someone mentioned using nail clippers

[nickelsilver]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

It feels sort of embarrassing having to ask, but what does "a pair of fine cutting pliers" look like? Perhaps something like the picture above (link in the picture)? Any specific recommendations or advice?

Those look pretty good. I have some old Dumonts here, and really like Lindstrom (from your neck of the woods). But even good quality nail clippers can work, straight face is nicer than curved.

 

I also like to grease the inside of the CP. I don't want the grease contaminating the oiling of the center wheel!

 

[Nucejoe]

31 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I think someone mentioned using nail clippers

A WRT member posted picture of one he made,  Inspired by Bergeon tool 4733.  

 

Rgds

 

[Klassiker]

9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

To make a blind hole in a thin minute hand that would fit a cannon pinion correctly would be 100x (1000x?) times harder.

I've given this some thought today, and I believe it's more to do with the extra overall height you would need. To cover the open end of the cannon pinion, the minute hand would need a collar or tube on the underside, with a thickness of at least that of the hand itself. The space between the hour and minute hands would increase accordingly.

[clockboy]

I did make the mistake once of increasing the friction to much with a cannon pinion.. Lesson learnt never adjust the friction of a cannon pinion without total control. I now use my sietz jeweling tool that has a stump specifically for this task. There are other tools such as the Bergeon 4733. To reduce the friction a small smoothing broach would be the best way. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by clockboy

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I think someone mentioned using nail clippers

That does work, ive tried it and tested the cannon pinion's position on a smoothing broach. A before and after with and without an insert in the cannon pinion. Without an insert it tends to crush the tube, with an insert the indent is more localised to one small area. I do have a specific tool that has an anvil to tap into the cannon pinion which does a better job.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

That does work, ive tried it and tested the cannon pinion's position on a smoothing broach. A before and after with and without an insert in the cannon pinion. Without an insert it tends to crush the tube, with an insert the indent is more localised to one small area. I do have a specific tool that has an anvil to tap into the cannon pinion which does a better job.

I use the "pointy thing" in the staking set, which is used to align the holes. It has a nice sharp tip. I put a bit of brass, or a broach in the pinion to prevent crushing, then a very light tap with the hammer 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I use the "pointy thing" in the staking set, which is used to align the holes. It has a nice sharp tip. I put a bit of brass, or a broach in the pinion to prevent crushing, then a very light tap with the hammer 

Ah ok, I'll have to check my staking set for that, it has loads of accessories with it. The small device that i have is similar with a chisel bit. I did find it odd that applying pressure to the same point would open it slightly, a slightly different size or shape bit i wonder. I woukd have thought like squeezing something out of a tube, squeeze at 90 degrees pulls the contents back inside by rewidening the tube

Edited December 5, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[clockboy]

Yes sorry did not mention it is to important to support ( I use a piece of brass pivot wire) without, the danger is to change the shape of the pinion. 

[Ammar]

اخي في مسنات رفاع كتير اسمن بروتش بالانكليزي دور علين بس انتبه انت وعم تشتغل وماسك القطعة ما تنحني او تنطعج او يتغير شكلا لأنك بتصير بمشكلة اصعب من المشكلة الاولى.

There I answered in Arabic, I hope I did a good job explaining thinfs since I don't really use Arabic when talking about watches.