Hi

[Loei]

Hello everybody,

I'm Loei and I live in The Netherlands.

I am currently in possesion of a pocket watch which belonged to my great grandfather which I plan to restore to running condition.
I'll be posting questions about that in the proper forums.

Cheers!

[jdm]

Welcome here. Do you have any previous experience? When a watch is precious by material or sentimental value, it is a definite mistake for a total beginner to attack it. The chances of a good outcome are small, despite the better intentions of the individual. One should practice first on pieces of small or little value, that will allow to get a realistic grasp of what is involved in terms of knowledge, skill, and tools.

[Loei]

Hi, and thank you for the advice!

I have zero experience and in an attempt to get spare parts I purchased the same watch (or so I thought) but it is larger in size. That would be a good place to start practicing I suppose.

Again thanks, starting out on something that is possibly an heirloom does indeed seem unwise.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Loei

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Loei said:

Hi, and thank you for the advice!

I have zero experience and in an attempt to get spare parts I purchased the same watch (or so I thought) but it is larger in size. That would be a good place to start practicing I suppose.

Again thanks, starting out on something that is possibly an heirloom does indeed seem unwise.

Good advice from jdm. You would be so upset if you made things worse inside which is very easily done even above the skill of a beginner. 

[watchweasol]

Hi You have recieved some good advice, I would only add have a look at the pocketwatchdatabase.com there is a mine of information , serial number lookups,  exploded diagrams of pocket watches, so familiarise yourself with the workings of a watch,  get youself some good tools and begin the journey.       attached is a listing of tools, not compulsory but advisory. And buy only what you need. Its a rewarding hobby as many will attest but can also be expensive and frusrtating, plan wisely and good luck.              Cheers

1612608791_ToolsfortheHobbyist (2) (1).pdf

[Loei]

Thanks for that tip!

The watch that I had planned to replaur is one fro Japy Freres and it's a L'alouette movement.
The hairspring is broken and I thought the pallet fork was missing but aparrently it has a cilinder escapement.

As I am typing this I am in the proces of requiring a similar watch to harvest the balancewheel/hairspring parts from.

Will have a look on that database @watchweasol! And ofcourse ask the right questions in the right topics here.

[jdm]

5 hours ago, Loei said:

The hairspring is broken and I thought the pallet fork was missing but aparrently it has a cilinder escapement.
As I am typing this I am in the proces of requiring a similar watch to harvest the balancewheel/hairspring parts from.

It's very unlikely that you can find an hairspring which matches the existing balance wheel and cylinder combo.Itvwould need  to come from an identical mov.t.. In fact it would be good already to get it to merely run without any regard to timekeeping. It exisits a specific and very tight relationship between the size, material and natural oscillation of an hairspring, and the weight if the balance wheel. On top of that, cylinder escapement repair is pretty much a lost art today, it has not been cultivated anymore because it was so inferior to the lever escapement, that buyers and watchmakers quickly lost interest in it when presented with affordable alternatives.

Edited July 11, 2022 by jdm

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome from England. 

[grsnovi]

Greetings and welcome!

After quite a lot of time and angst I found out to my dismay that EVEN IF YOU GET a watch of the same model from the same manufacturer, often the parts are NOT interchangeable.

In any case, there is a lot of knowledge contained in some of the lengthy threads on this message board.

Mark L. has a series of self-paced, online courses that you might consider. Look here.

This web page also has a lot of very detailed information on the workings of a mechanical watch.

[oldhippy]

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to this friendly forum.

We all look forward to your contributions and continued involvement. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Hello and welcome from England. 

Rich . When you getting your butt into gear mate ?

6 hours ago, Loei said:

Thanks for that tip!

The watch that I had planned to replaur is one fro Japy Freres and it's a L'alouette movement.
The hairspring is broken and I thought the pallet fork was missing but aparrently it has a cilinder escapement.

As I am typing this I am in the proces of requiring a similar watch to harvest the balancewheel/hairspring parts from.

Will have a look on that database @watchweasol! And ofcourse ask the right questions in the right topics here.

Andyhull has just  posted a 404 of that make, it might be similar.  He may be able to give you some advice with that if you politely ask him. Look at the 404 thread

[Nucejoe]

Welcome to WRT forum.

 You will be vibrating a statically poised balance with a compatible hairspring to build your balance complete, it all has to do with the balance complete, I don't see what the the type of escapement has to do with it.

 

[jdm]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 vibrating a statically poised balance with a compatible hairspring to build your balance complete,

Which is an advanced task for master watchmakers, based not only on vast skills and tools, but also on the availability of a set of hairsprings containing the one needed. 

Not the sort of work possible for an absolute beginner, or pretty much any repairer for that matter. 

I think that setting expectations right for people is extremely important. 

[Loei]

Thank you all for your replies.

I expect to receive an identical movement tomorrow of which I hope to use the balance and the main spring + barrel.

Just to be clear on all your advices: How difficult will it be for me to replace the balance and main spring + barrel and then put the watch back together?

Is something like that doable for a beginner or should I get it done by an experienced person?

Edited July 12, 2022 by Loei

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, Loei said:

Japy Freres and it's a L'alouette movement.

I was wondering if you can post a picture of your watch?

23 minutes ago, Loei said:

How difficult will it be for me to replace the balance and main spring + barrel and then put the watch back together?

it depends on how old your watch is the older the watch less likely the parts will be identical even if it appears to be the same. this is because an older watches despite being mass-produced a lot of times they were hand fit.

How easy it is to put together depends upon your skill set. Usually for people new to watch repair accidents happen which is why we usually recommend practice watches on less valuable items.

17 hours ago, Loei said:

aparrently it has a cilinder escapement

cylinder watch would explain why your pallet fork is missing. You want to be careful there's things that you do not want to take off and screw up the alignment of the cylinder otherwise getting it all back functional again is going to be a really interesting process.

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Loei said:

Is something like that doable for a beginner or should I get it done by an experienced person?

Really, as said above, one needs experience and tools to undertake any watch work. Handling a balance wheel is not like replacing brake pads on a car. Beside, if the mov.t that you buy work and fits the case, then it would be wiser to swap it entirely. If you still have doubts try that, take a an cheap quartz watch value like 3 euros. Take it apart down to the smallest part then put it back. If it was working before, check if it still does.

Edited July 12, 2022 by jdm

[Loei]

Thank you for the advice.

I think I will try my luck on something else first then.
I just found a cheap Ruhla pocket watch that is not running.

You guys talked me out of destroying a family watch so thank you!

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I was wondering if you can post a picture of your watch?

it depends on how old your watch is the older the watch less likely the parts will be identical even if it appears to be the same. this is because an older watches despite being mass-produced a lot of times they were hand fit.

How easy it is to put together depends upon your skill set. Usually for people new to watch repair accidents happen which is why we usually recommend practice watches on less valuable items.

cylinder watch would explain why your pallet fork is missing. You want to be careful there's things that you do not want to take off and screw up the alignment of the cylinder otherwise getting it all back functional again is going to be a really interesting process.

 

Here is the watch, it is currently disasembled though.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Loei said:

Thank you all for your replies.

I expect to receive an identical movement tomorrow of which I hope to use the balance and the main spring + barrel.

Just to be clear on all your advices: How difficult will it be for me to replace the balance and main spring + barrel and then put the watch back together?

Is something like that doable for a beginner or should I get it done by an experienced person?

Hi loei. Yes it is possible for a beginner to do this but as an absolute beginner as already suggested my friend you should definitely practice on other things first. Build your confidence and skill on other movements to make sure that this one of sentiment is not made any worse. And as Gary has pointed out you will need some luck in your donor parts even being correct to install. Unless you intend to spend a good portion of time into learning and gaining some skill and buying some ressonable tools to carry on with this hobby you may be better off having a skilled  watch repairer do the job or at least give you an estimate for the work so you can weigh up which way to proceed. 

[watchweasol]

That looks like a nice old watch and best kept untill you feel confident enough. Practise on many working movements. If it works before hand is should work afterwards if no you have just goofed, we have all been there done that and got the T shirt      all the best and good luck.

[JohnR725]

50 minutes ago, Loei said:

You guys talked me out of destroying a family watch so thank you!

that is one of the most important lessons to learn in watch repair when not to repair a watch. it's a very common problem for people to try to repair things beyond their skill set and if it doesn't end well it could either be very expensive or have another problem. The other problem is friends and family will find out your repairing watches and they will have watches for you to work on. Seemingly it may start off innocent enough but break grandpa's watch will your family and friends be understanding be happy or will you lose family and friends?

then excellent pictures. This is definitely not a beginner's watch. The cylinder makes things complicated because they're just a pain to do anyway. notice the simple design makes it look easy doesn't it? But at simple plate is covering a lot of gears and mysteries? Basically can as we can't see what's under the plate. When you go to reassemble all those gears and everything has to be exactly where it's supposed to be or you could break things like pivots. When you're new to repairing watches getting pivots in alignment is difficult and if you get lots of pivots in alignment that is very difficult. This is why watches like this are misleading they look easy when in reality they're not. then your hands look really pretty unfortunately they tend to be delicate they do not like to be bent and they will definitely break if you're not careful.

 

57 minutes ago, jdm said:

Beside, if the mov.t that you buy work and fits the case, then it would be wiser to swap it entirely.

this is actually a really excellent idea. If the replacement movement you have looks identical to the one you have now just swap the movements. this way of actually repaired the watch as it's now functional providing your donor movement is functional. It is actually a valid repair replacing a movement is done all the time in modern watches. Then it gives you time to get your skill set up and find suitable parts to repair the original watch.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Loei said:

Thank you for the advice.

I think I will try my luck on something else first then.
I just found a cheap Ruhla pocket watch that is not running.

You guys talked me out of destroying a family watch so thank you!

Here is the watch, it is currently disasembled though.

 

 

Can i ask a question and make a suggestion loei ? Did you take plenty of photos while you were disassembling. I do mean plenty of photos at every stage and of the orientation of every train wheel, part spring etc etc. If you did not and will not be returning to this soon, you may very well forget what goes where and how it fits. Believe me as a beginner you can forget within the space of a few minutes unless you took very close notice and even then a hour later that memory can fade. So as a suggestion if you have no photos to help you walkthrough your reassembly i would be tempted to carefully reassemble while you still have some recollection.  If you are lucky and you are in your 30s or 40s you may still have good recall, if you are knocking on in years and cant remember when you last had a pee or an airhead teenager that cant remember when he last ate then i think you're probably screwed and will need a tonne of help here

[Loei]

Thank you very much for all your advice!

I have not made any photos while dissasembling, very very stupid on my part.
The swap with the working donor sounds like the way to go, the watch is nog very valuable money wise but the goal is to get it running and perhaps the donor movement will do that.

Thank you all, when I get started on this watch or another I will make a new topic.

Cheers!

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Loei said:

Here is the watch, it is currently disasembled though.

In reality,there is nothing very difficult in taking apart and putting back together a pocket watch if one is a just a bit careful. [EDIT: except fitting many pivots under a single plate as John said]. The hairspring is thicker and a lot more robust compared to a modern wristwatch. Beside, in your case it's broken already. On the other hand, anyone that repair watches knows that the most terrible damage is done by owners, including ones that had an high opinion of their own abilities, that includes myself starting age 12. And as soon you need something better than beauty salon tweezers or generic small drivers, you don't have it, which increases the already high chances of damage or loss are further amplified.

So, improvisation is never the right approach to watch repair. Just like a loved or expensive piece watch commands respect, the same should be with the trade of their repair. Not quick, not cheap and not particularly easy to learn. These are the basic notions that one must accept before starting with it.

Of course,  we know well that giving a cheap watch to a reputable professional (good luck finding one) it's not always a viable alternative, as it was maybe 50 years ago. He may not be interested in taking the work, or have an extremely long waiting list, and of course the cost can be easily 10, 15 or even more times the material value of the watch. Unfortunate facts that nobody can change.

Personally I consider myself very lucky in having received quite a few nice pieces from my family. Most are working. The very nice one that had a small issue (just a fiber that I could not see) has been set right in front of myself by someone a lot better than me, for free, I was very luck again. I do not even think about going to mess with it again in my life. Same for the vintage pieces that don't work, I gladly leave them alone. They are what they are, and tell me the same story,  working on not.

Edited July 12, 2022 by jdm

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Loei said:

Thank you very much for all your advice!

I have not made any photos while dissasembling, very very stupid on my part.
The swap with the working donor sounds like the way to go, the watch is nog very valuable money wise but the goal is to get it running and perhaps the donor movement will do that.

Thank you all, when I get started on this watch or another I will make a new topic.

Cheers!

Not very very stupid loei so dont beat yourself up about it. Just a beginner's mistake that has been done over and over by many. If you intend to do more repair you will make more mistakes, its the  nature of the hobby. Hell you would gringe at the things I've done lol. Just start reassembling the watch it will be good practice, and if the other watch is identical you also have that as an assembly assistant. Its all good loei there are ways and means around mistakes dont worry fella.

9 minutes ago, jdm said:

In reality,there is nothing very difficult in taking apart and putting back together a pocket watch if one is a just a bit careful. [EDIT: except fitting very many pivots under a single plate as Joha said]. The hairspring is thicker and a lotmmore robust compared to a modern wristwatch. Beside, in your case it's broken already. On the other hand, anyone that repair watches knows that the most terrible damage is done by owners, including ones that had an high opinion of their own abilities, that includes myself starting age 12. And as soon you need something better than beuty salon tweezers or generic small drivers, you don't have it, which increases the already high chances of damage or loss are further amplified.

So, improvisation is never the right approach to watch repair. Just like a loved or expensive piece watch commands respect, same should be with the trade of their repair. Not quick,  not cheap and not particularly easy to learn. These are the basic notions that one must accept before starting with it.

Of course,  we know well that giving a cheap watch to a reputable professional (good luck finding one) it's not always a viable alternative, as it was maybe 50 years ago. He may not be interested in taking the work, or have an extremely long waiting list, and of course the cost can be easy 10, 15 or even more times the material value of the watch. Unfortunate facts that nobody can change.

Personally I consider myself very lucky in having received quite a few nice pieces from my family. Most are working. The very nice one that had a small issue (just a fiber that I could not see) has been set right in front of myself by someone a lot better than me, for free, I was very luck again. I do not even think about going to mess with it again in my life. Same for the vintage pieces that don't work, I gladly leave them alone. They are what they are,  and tell the same story,  working on not.

Aw JDM a beautiful story , i enjoyed reading that thank you for sharing