Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[Paul80]

From what I have seen a read on this there general consensus seems to be with manual wind watches a thin coat of 8200 along the length of the spring, both sides, unless it's a new spring which should already be lubricated. Then something like D5 or 1300 were the arbour rotates in the barrel, some also but a couple of drops of oil/grease on the bottom of the barrel and some put some on the top of the spring before fitting the lid of the barrel.  I suspect only the spring and arbour need lubrication the rest is just down to the individuals technique.

[Nucejoe]

I don't understand why mainsprings should be lubricated along its length. 

[nickelsilver]

36 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't understand why mainsprings should be lubricated along its length. 

There's friction between the coils as it winds and unwinds. You can see the wear spots easily on old blue springs, and feel them on modern springs.

[Woolshire]

Ok, folks; all this discussion and I’m still curious about your position on this question:

does this mainspring require any lubrication? It’s a white alloy/not automatic, but doesn’t mention it is pre-lubricated. Of course, it is made to be directly inserted into the barrel…thoughts?

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Woolshire

[Kramm]

What do you think, can this be used as braking grease? [On a scrap movements for practice, not professionally] It is Molybdenum Disulfide grease for for extra long lubricity and high pressures. It has the same color and consistency as Kluber Chronogrease P125, and the main ingredient is MoS2, just like in P125. I am just curious, please don't rant at me

Edited February 18, 2022 by Kramm

[Klassiker]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:29 PM, Woolshire said:

does this mainspring require any lubrication?

I would put it into the barrel straight from the holder, then put three big spots of oil onto the coils to wick in. If it is pre-lubricated you won't be over-oiling, so no harm done. It definitely needs lubrication, and I suspect it is old stock, so even if pre-lubricated, it is probably quite dry by now.

[Klassiker]

12 hours ago, Kramm said:

can this be used as braking grease?

I have no idea, but I am looking forward to the results of your experiment!

[Kramm]

11 hours ago, Klassiker said:

I have no idea, but I am looking forward to the results of your experiment!

I have tested LM-47 grease on an old Vostok 2416B automatic movement. The grease is thick and it really nicely adheres to the barrel wall. Under pressure from the mainspring, grease liquifies and because of that, it probably sticks the bridle to the barrel wall, not letting it slip until the very end. My conclusion is that this grease has good braking properties, and MoS2 should protect the barrel wall from wear. The only question remains how long will it last...

[Klassiker]

Langzeitfett - should last a long time!

Seriously, if you get the specified power reserve, and it doesn't spread everywhere, especially outside the barrel, then I don't see a problem with it as a cheap alternative for your own watches. If you remember, give us an update in a few months.

[RichardHarris123]

Hello all 

I've just read over a million articles on mainspring lubrication, OK slight exaggeration.  Can't find any concensus.  Help!!!

[Klassiker]

 

22 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Can't find any concensus

In addition to the million articles, you read the previous 12 pages of this thread, right? What makes you think you will find a concensus here? 

What specifically is troubling you?

[watchweasol]

The lubrication of clocks and watches is a contencious subject.  I should seek out the articals by Mark Lovick or Nicklesilver who are the professionals and do it for a living. As you have found out there are lots of opinions.     good luck.

[jdm]

I don't see any contention at least on the specific subject of this topic. Virtually every other page contains the same sound and proven advice by our known best contributors, and others, all saying basically the same. If anyone thinks that's not the case, can go ahead and summarize about what exactly people does not agree on. 

[Woolshire]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:52 AM, Klassiker said:

I would put it into the barrel straight from the holder, then put three big spots of oil onto the coils to wick in. If it is pre-lubricated you won't be over-oiling, so no harm done. It definitely needs lubrication, and I suspect it is old stock, so even if pre-lubricated, it is probably quite dry by now.

Thanks. I agree it should have some oil added. For this case, still 8200 or, maybe a little HP1300 on the coils? 
Also, this NOS white alloy mainspring is likely 55-60 years old. And I’m still curious if this one would have been lubricated as made? Or did they expect watchmakers to snap into place and then oil coils as described?

Edited February 24, 2022 by Woolshire

[Klassiker]

8200 or HP1300, or any number of alternatives will be fine. It depends a lot on what you have to hand. Re the White-a-loy spring: If it doesn't say pre-lubricated on the packet, then I would guess it was supplied dry. That really is a guess though. There are traditionally two ways of applying oil; uncoiled and wiping with oily paper, or coiled, with drops applied to the barrel surfaces and coils. As the older blue steel springs had to be oiled by the watchmaker, I'm guessing the old methods prevailed, and only later was pre-lubrication accepted and widely adopted. I'd like to hear what the "old pros" say about it though.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Klassiker

[Paul80]

Hi all.

A quick question I hope regarding braking grease for the mainspring barrel wall.

Moebious list 3, 8212, 8213 and 8217.

The first two I think I understand with 8212 offering week braking for alluminium barrels and 8213 offering strong braking for brass barrels but then we have 8217 listed as anti sliding for large barrels and providing powerful braking.

When would I have to use 8217 instead of 8213.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can clear up my confusion.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 2/19/2022 at 6:21 PM, Kramm said:

I have tested LM-47 grease on an old Vostok 2416B automatic movement. The grease is thick and it really nicely adheres to the barrel wall. Under pressure from the mainspring, grease liquifies and because of that, it probably sticks the bridle to the barrel wall, not letting it slip until the very end. My conclusion is that this grease has good braking properties, and MoS2 should protect the barrel wall from wear. The only question remains how long will it last...

As an added question kramm, would you use this on the barrel wall only and leave the rest of the mainspring unlubed? 

[Paul80]

I see Mark recomends the 8217 is this better than 8213 for all watches, when would one be better than the other.

Sorry I am new at this and getting myself confused.

Do you also apply grease to the rim of the barrel in a manual wind watch or is it only in Automatics.

Just watched a Cronoglide video on youtube and Kallie used 8207 which is a graphite grease on the barrel of a Rolex he was working on but we didn't get to see if it was a Manual or Automatic.

Thanks for any help with this.

Paul

Edited April 19, 2022 by Paul80

[Paul80]

Is this one of those closely guarded trade secrets

[grsnovi]

@Paul80I guess my question to you is: what are you working on? Is it a practice movement? Is it an heirloom antique given to you by a relative with the admonishment not to mess it up?

I'm completely new to this. I still have my first movement in pieces waiting for my oils to arrive.

I routinely have been watching three individuals on YouTube who do nice work (one of whom claims to be a novice hobbiest). I have seen felted tweezers advertised as being used to wipe a mainspring with something prior to winding it into a winder and loading it into a barrel. I have seen braking grease applied to the barrels of automatics. I have seen three drops of (something) applied to the bottom inside of a barrel prior to installing a spring.

I think the current crop of Swiss manufacturing house have very intricate and detailed lubrication specs. Some of the new, synthetic lubricants behave differently under pressure. What might have worked just fine on a 100 year old pocket watch 100 years ago will likely still work on that type of watch assuming that you do in fact service it at the same interval used 100 years ago. These days service intervals are longer than they were. If you're working on a historic piece of value I'd suggest that you rethink your ability and work on something less valuable.

I want to open up my hand wound Zenith but I want to gain experience with several older and newer movements before I tackle that.

If you look closely at the 22 page Moebius oil description document you can see what the viscosity is of each of their oils at various temperatures. I doubt that using D5 in place of HP1300 in place of 9104 would impact the functioning of a watch. It's not clear to me where one would use molykote dx in place of D5 but they are noted as being similar by some.

You might get a better result if you privately asked your question of one of the folks on the board whom you respect for their answers. You might also think about if it really matters for what you're actually doing at the moment.

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Is this one of those closely guarded trade secrets

Nah mate. I think some are just fed up of talking about the subject tbh. How much if a beginner  are you?

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

Nah mate. I think some are just fed up of talking about the subject tbh. How much if a beginner  are you?

Let me guess. Mark , kalle , and Joe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

@Paul80I guess my question to you is: what are you working on? Is it a practice movement? Is it an heirloom antique given to you by a relative with the admonishment not to mess it up?

I'm completely new to this. I still have my first movement in pieces waiting for my oils to arrive.

I routinely have been watching three individuals on YouTube who do nice work (one of whom claims to be a novice hobbiest). I have seen felted tweezers advertised as being used to wipe a mainspring with something prior to winding it into a winder and loading it into a barrel. I have seen braking grease applied to the barrels of automatics. I have seen three drops of (something) applied to the bottom inside of a barrel prior to installing a spring.

I think the current crop of Swiss manufacturing house have very intricate and detailed lubrication specs. Some of the new, synthetic lubricants behave differently under pressure. What might have worked just fine on a 100 year old pocket watch 100 years ago will likely still work on that type of watch assuming that you do in fact service it at the same interval used 100 years ago. These days service intervals are longer than they were. If you're working on a historic piece of value I'd suggest that you rethink your ability and work on something less valuable.

I want to open up my hand wound Zenith but I want to gain experience with several older and newer movements before I tackle that.

If you look closely at the 22 page Moebius oil description document you can see what the viscosity is of each of their oils at various temperatures. I doubt that using D5 in place of HP1300 in place of 9104 would impact the functioning of a watch. It's not clear to me where one would use molykote dx in place of D5 but they are noted as being similar by some.

You might get a better result if you privately asked your question of one of the folks on the board whom you respect for their answers. You might also think about if it really matters for what you're actually doing at the 

I see you've come away from the mayhem Gary, it was doing my bloody head in . Personally I think there are too many variables  for even the pros to agree with each other. Some are helpful and some want to wave their  school reports in front of your face and argue that their ways are the best. There is such a vast amount to learn but you need to start somewhere, when you finally get going, a lot will fall into place. The confusion  does die down and you will honestly  figure things out for yourself. But some re organising of the posts on basics needs to be done, I've found posts going back 8 years. A decent section outlining the basics of tools and equipment is already there but maybe needs to be elaborated  on. And in my very honest strong opinions on certain behaviour, that definitely needs addressing. I hate bullies.  How's it going anyway, has you bits arrived yet ?

[Paul80]

14 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Nah mate. I think some are just fed up of talking about the subject tbh. How much if a beginner  are you?

How much of a beginner, less than a year so very much a beginner.

I have been using 8213 but keep seeing reference to 8217 being the grease of choice including Mark of WRT fame, then I saw Kalle from Chronoglide recomending 8207 Graphite Grease for Braking so was wondeing if I had made right decision with 8213

My other Lubricants are quite basic, 9010, HP1300, 941 (I have not encountered a high beat watch yet but do have 9415 for when I do) 8200, 9501 & 8212 & 8213.

Currently I am only working on Japanese watches, Seiko and Citizen.

Should I move to 8217 instead of 8213 and were does 8207 fit in, is it a braking grease (Its not listed as such by Moebious) or is Kalle just using as such.

Paul

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

How much of a beginner, less than a year so very much a beginner.

I have been using 8213 but keep seeing reference to 8217 being the grease of choice including Mark of WRT fame, then I saw Kalle from Chronoglide recomending 8207 Graphite Grease for Braking so was wondeing if I had made right decision with 8213

My other Lubricants are quite basic, 9010, HP1300, 941 (I have not encountered a high beat watch yet but do have 9415 for when I do) 8200, 9501 & 8212 & 8213.

Currently I am only working on Japanese watches, Seiko and Citizen.

Should I move to 8217 instead of 8213 and were does 8207 fit in, is it a braking grease (Its not listed as such by Moebious) or is Kalle just using as such.

Paul

Hi Paul you're  about the same as me than . Haha. Sorry my friend I've not gone that deep into oils, you're way above me there. I try to keep things simple and stick to 4 oils only maybe another needed but that's as far as I want to go. I never see the point of overcomplicated things for my self. I think you could tell me more about oils than I can you . There is always a lot of discussion  about the subject. It's best to just pick one pro and stick to them, but they can get arsy when asked the same questions over and over. If you read back a couple of posts you'll notice my post on that. Have a quick look through back posts to see if your answer is there first. There is one member  on here that is apparently good with seikos. Ask vwatches i think he knows who he is.