Having systemic problems with low amplitude on every watch I practice on

[GregG]

1 hour ago, Plato said:

Could some of your (Greg) tools or something on your bench be magnetised? Every time you work on a watch, the hairspring could be getting magnetised... I know the rate gains a hell of a lot when the hairspring is magnetised, maybe the amplitude drops accordingly too?

As above, a timegrapher would show you instantly.

Hi Plato, I've tried demagnetizing, but no luck.  And I'm using a beefy demagnetizer, none of those cheap blue ones from eBay.

[JohnR725]

25 minutes ago, GregG said:

I've tried demagnetizing, but no luck.  And I'm using a beefy demagnetizer, none of those cheap blue ones from eBay.

just for the fun of it what is your procedure for demagnetizing?

[GregG]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

just for the fun of it what is your procedure for demagnetizing?

Per the product page:

https://www.esslinger.com/heavy-duty-demagnetizer-and-magnetizer-combination/

To Demagnetize - Simply hold object in the center of the opening with button depressed for 3 or 4 seconds, then slowly withdraw object in a straight line and release button

[Plato]

From what I remember from an old 'de Carle' book, I think you have to withdraw from a demagnetiser in a big arc but I don't think he had access to modern electronic kit. Are you testing the movement with or without dial + hands? I've been caught out with a loose dial or sticking hands a few times. 

[GregG]

28 minutes ago, Plato said:

From what I remember from an old 'de Carle' book, I think you have to withdraw from a demagnetiser in a big arc but I don't think he had access to modern electronic kit. Are you testing the movement with or without dial + hands? I've been caught out with a loose dial or sticking hands a few times. 

I've had the issue both with and without the dial attached.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, GregG said:

To Demagnetize - Simply hold object in the center of the opening with button depressed for 3 or 4 seconds, then slowly withdraw object in a straight line and release button

dressed to refresh everyone's memory this is what Omega recommends or at least what they used to recommend. then the procedure is slightly more complicated in that you need to do it three separate times and you need to make sure you get a far enough away.

 

[GregG]

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

dressed to refresh everyone's memory this is what Omega recommends or at least what they used to recommend. then the procedure is slightly more complicated in that you need to do it three separate times and you need to make sure you get a far enough away.

 

Correct John, this is the procedure I follow.  Three different times with three different rotations.

[clockboy]

I have used this Elma demagnetiser for many years it is quick and works every time. I must admit I am surprised at the price of it now thou. 
 

[jdm]

Full demag discussion below. Personally I have found that magnatization does not cause low amplitude.

 

[Nucejoe]

22 hours ago, GregG said:

Unfortunately I'm measuring the amplitude by eye, not by machine.  

You mean like this  .    lol

Greg,  a good clean, no oil on fork arbour pivots and epilame pallet jewels and she will run happy enough.

Good luck

 

 

[JohnR725]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:02 PM, GregG said:

my problems are not with a specific watch, but rather every watch I try.  The watch might be running with good amplitude before I service it, and poor amplitude after

 

 

On 6/2/2021 at 9:02 PM, GregG said:

I recently serviced a vintage Timex, and I was able to get about 180 degrees (in both directions, as measured from the resting position of the impulse pin) of amplitude out of it, and that's some of the best amplitude I've ever gotten out of something I've serviced

 

On 6/2/2021 at 9:02 PM, GregG said:

Some watches I've worked on run beautifully for a few hours, and then I'll check back a little later, and the balance has stopped.

 

On 6/2/2021 at 9:02 PM, GregG said:

I worked on one that was behaving so erratically.  I would give the balance a flick, and it wouldn't move.  Then I would give it a flick, and it'll run for a little bit but slowly die out.  Then I'll give it another flick, and it starts running really well, high amplitude, beating strong.  I'll rotate the movement 90 degrees, and it'll just die out.

I was thinking about your original question I quoted some things above.

first off just to make sure every single watch was in beautiful running condition before you touched it. in other words none of these were non-running watches that you're trying to get running?

then I quoted three examples and that is a problem because each example is showing different problems..  the problem with three different unique problems is it rules out a lot of common things.

let's look at each of the examples and see what the problem is? 

The Timex is running with 180° amplitude that is definitely a problem. As you stated it was running beautifully before and now it's amplitude sucks.

Then the second example indicates it's running beautifully that doesn't agree with sucking amplitude like above. But it only does it for a few hours and comes to a stop. if you wind it back up tight does it start off and run again for another couple hours?

Then the third watch doesn't sound like it's running at all and it's very erratic. that is an entirely different problem than the other two examples.

the problem now becomes we have one watch that runs with low amplitude zero idea if it keeps time. Another watch that runs outstanding but for a short period of time. The third watch that is erratic and doesn't run at all? These are basically watches all with running issues we really need to look at them as individual watches. Then I would still be really nice if you're a timing machine who works really nicely for diagnostics at least once you understand what you're looking. So basically we're going to have to look at each watch individually and we need pictures. Because as a new person starting their things that we might see that you don't see that was really good pictures are needed of the balance wheel in the watch so we can see the hairspring looks right for instance.

 

[GregG]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

 

 

 

I was thinking about your original question I quoted some things above.

first off just to make sure every single watch was in beautiful running condition before you touched it. in other words none of these were non-running watches that you're trying to get running?

then I quoted three examples and that is a problem because each example is showing different problems..  the problem with three different unique problems is it rules out a lot of common things.

let's look at each of the examples and see what the problem is? 

The Timex is running with 180° amplitude that is definitely a problem. As you stated it was running beautifully before and now it's amplitude sucks.

Then the second example indicates it's running beautifully that doesn't agree with sucking amplitude like above. But it only does it for a few hours and comes to a stop. if you wind it back up tight does it start off and run again for another couple hours?

Then the third watch doesn't sound like it's running at all and it's very erratic. that is an entirely different problem than the other two examples.

the problem now becomes we have one watch that runs with low amplitude zero idea if it keeps time. Another watch that runs outstanding but for a short period of time. The third watch that is erratic and doesn't run at all? These are basically watches all with running issues we really need to look at them as individual watches. Then I would still be really nice if you're a timing machine who works really nicely for diagnostics at least once you understand what you're looking. So basically we're going to have to look at each watch individually and we need pictures. Because as a new person starting their things that we might see that you don't see that was really good pictures are needed of the balance wheel in the watch so we can see the hairspring looks right for instance.

 

Hi John, just want to clarify.  The Timex wasn't running at all when I started on it.  For the watch that runs a few hours, I can't find a rhyme or reason for why it runs like that.  When it stops running, I'll check the winding, and it's still at ~90% of it's capacity, because the crown will only turn a few times before it stops.

I have these all bucketed under amplitude issues because that seems to be the common thread between all of these.  Sometimes they run, so I don't think there's anything wrong with the way it was reassembled, from a "this-part-goes-here, that-part-goes-there" perspective.  But some weak link in the chain, whether that's friction, or lubrication or something, should be able to explain these.  A watch that's not beating strongly might not be able to withstand being turned 90 degrees.  Or if it's given a jostle such that it can start, some friction somewhere causes a fractional energy loss on each swing pass the pallet fork.  So the first swing gives an impulse at 99% of it's normal rotational speed.  Then the next swing pass, it only impulses it at 98%, then 97%.  It's technically "running," but dying as it's doing so.

[GregG]

14 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

You mean like this  .    lol

Greg,  a good clean, no oil on fork arbour pivots and epilame pallet jewels and she will run happy enough.

Good luck

 

 

I was reassembling one today with as little lubrication as possible to check how the amplitude would be.  But unfortunately I lost a critical piece so I couldn't finish it.

Side question: How do I stop shock springs from flying off into the 5th dimension?

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, GregG said:

I was reassembling one today with as little lubrication as possible to check how the amplitude would be.  But unfortunately I lost a critical piece so I couldn't finish it.

Side question: How do I stop shock springs from flying off into the 5th dimension?

What shock springs are these? If they are the novodiac ones the tool sold by bergeon may be quite helpful, although you could make a similar type from a toothpick or pegwood.

If it’s a normal captive incabloc type then really fine tweezers to at least dislodge/unhook one side, then your finest screwdriver to push the other side; you may be able to use your finest tweezers on the other side too, but I find that sometimes it just doesn’t want to slide out. Technically these captive springs should not be able to fly out, but if the entire incabloc is not depthed correctly, or damaged, it can escape from the notch it’s supposed to be held in. Some people work on these shock settings under a piece of cling film so that it can’t fly away, or within a ziploc bag so that it can’t fly that far.

[GregG]

10 hours ago, ifibrin said:

What shock springs are these? If they are the novodiac ones the tool sold by bergeon may be quite helpful, although you could make a similar type from a toothpick or pegwood.

If it’s a normal captive incabloc type then really fine tweezers to at least dislodge/unhook one side, then your finest screwdriver to push the other side; you may be able to use your finest tweezers on the other side too, but I find that sometimes it just doesn’t want to slide out. Technically these captive springs should not be able to fly out, but if the entire incabloc is not depthed correctly, or damaged, it can escape from the notch it’s supposed to be held in. Some people work on these shock settings under a piece of cling film so that it can’t fly away, or within a ziploc bag so that it can’t fly that far.

It's the ones in here in this picture that are the simplest U shape. The top right most one with the little "feet" sticking out.

My typical route is to go with a plastic bag over it so it can't fly off, but that obscures my view, so I've been practicing on just being careful with no bag.  The weird thing is that whenever I work on incablocs or other types that are "hinged," the hinged end is slotted in on the internal side of the jewel hole.  So even if it tried to pop off, the closed end of the hinge is behind it, so it would just bump into it, but stay in.

The one I worked on yesterday was slotted in on the external side of the jewel hole.  When it pops off, it just slides out of the hinge and into the ether.

 

[VWatchie]

On 6/3/2021 at 6:02 AM, GregG said:

The watch might be running with good amplitude before I service it, and poor amplitude after I service it

I can truly relate to this and you have my sympathy. You might find the following (very long) thread informational:

 

[ifibrin]

On 6/7/2021 at 12:12 AM, GregG said:

It's the ones in here in this picture that are the simplest U shape. The top right most one with the little "feet" sticking out.

My typical route is to go with a plastic bag over it so it can't fly off, but that obscures my view, so I've been practicing on just being careful with no bag.  The weird thing is that whenever I work on incablocs or other types that are "hinged," the hinged end is slotted in on the internal side of the jewel hole.  So even if it tried to pop off, the closed end of the hinge is behind it, so it would just bump into it, but stay in.

The one I worked on yesterday was slotted in on the external side of the jewel hole.  When it pops off, it just slides out of the hinge and into the ether.

 

If it’s slotted in on the outside of the shock block setting by design, and not because the block is pressed too far out, then it makes removing or installing the shock spring very difficult. In such a case you may be better off putting a small piece of rodico to hold the hinged end in place while you unhook the other end.

when reinstalling, maybe install the hinged end first then put some rodico on it to fix it in position then adjust the other end.

[Zero]

On 6/3/2021 at 12:02 PM, GregG said:

There was another post here recently about low amplitude, but my problems are not with a specific watch, but rather every watch I try.  The watch might be running with good amplitude before I service it, and poor amplitude after I service it, so it's definitely something that I'm doing wrong.  To the best of my knowledge, I'm doing stuff the way I'm supposed to.

I had the same problem you seem to be facing. I traced my problem to the isoprophyl alcohol that I was using as a final rinse. It may not have been 99.9% as advertised. For some reason, when it dried it left behind a barely noticeable sticky substance on all my watch parts (probably depleted uranium). It took a huge chunk out of my amplitude.