Having systemic problems with low amplitude on every watch I practice on

[GregG]

There was another post here recently about low amplitude, but my problems are not with a specific watch, but rather every watch I try.  The watch might be running with good amplitude before I service it, and poor amplitude after I service it, so it's definitely something that I'm doing wrong.  To the best of my knowledge, I'm doing stuff the way I'm supposed to.

My first thought was not oiling correctly, so I tried oiling the gear train a little more and oiling a little less, but no luck.  I've looked into how I oil the mainspring barrel, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary.  I do three dots of Moebius 8200 in a triangle on the inside floor of the barrel, and three dots on the inside of the cap.  The mainspring is not bent, and I use a proper winder to make sure it goes in correctly.  I am careful not to mix up upper/lower hole and cap jewels.  I oil the cap jewel in accordance with common practice.  I try not to torque down any of the bridges too tightly.

I recently serviced a vintage Timex, and I was able to get about 180 degrees (in both directions, as measured from the resting position of the impulse pin) of amplitude out of it, and that's some of the best amplitude I've ever gotten out of something I've serviced.  Some watches I've worked on run beautifully for a few hours, and then I'll check back a little later, and the balance has stopped.  And it wasn't due to a lack of winding, since the mainspring was still nearly fully wound at the time it stopped.  And tonight I worked on one that was behaving so erratically.  I would give the balance a flick, and it wouldn't move.  Then I would give it a flick, and it'll run for a little bit but slowly die out.  Then I'll give it another flick, and it starts running really well, high amplitude, beating strong.  I'll rotate the movement 90 degrees, and it'll just die out.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, can someone give some suggestions?  Or perhaps ask me how I do something, and through my answer, it'll reveal what I'm doing wrong?

Edited June 3, 2021 by GregG

[Nucejoe]

I noticed no mention of replacing mainsprings with new ones.

How do lube escape teeth and pallets?

Do not oil fork arbour pivots.

Make a habbit of checking shakes on all arbours especilly as you reassemble.

How do you clean?

Regs 

joe

 

 

[steve1811uk]

Hairspring not true in the round, or flat can cause low amplitude, especially if it's rubbing.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, steve1811uk said:

Hairspring not true in the round, or flat can cause low amplitude, especially if it's rubbing.

Wouldn't hairsprings rubbing increase the rate, the watch runs faster? beats more per unit time? 

Regs 

joe

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Wouldn't hairsprings rubbing increase the rate, the watch runs faster? beats more per unit time? 

it would decrease amplitude as mentioned. In that case rate doesn't mean anything as the problem must be corrected first.

[GregG]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I noticed no mention of replacing mainsprings with new ones.

How do lube escape teeth and pallets?

Do not oil fork arbour pivots.

Make a habbit of checking shakes on all arbours especilly as you reassemble.

How do you clean?

Regs 

joe

 

 

Mainsprings:

The watches are usually running with a good amplitude before servicing, and the mainspring looks good upon inspection, so I don't think that is an issue.

Escape teeth and pallet:

I put a small drop of Syntescap 941 on the exit jewel.

Fork Arbor Pivots:

These don't get any lubrication? Why not?

Endshakes:

Qualitatively/quantitatively, how much should I be looking for?

Cleaning:

Ultrasonic bath in a degreaser, followed by two rinses.

[GregG]

3 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Hairspring not true in the round, or flat can cause low amplitude, especially if it's rubbing.

Upon visual inspection, hairspring looks fine, perfectly concentric and lying flat.  Then again I am an amateur at this.... 

[Nucejoe]

2 minutes ago, GregG said:

 

Endshakes:

Qualitatively/quantitatively, how much should I be looking for?

 

Theoretically .02mm is perfect,  but hard to measure, so you go by feel.

As long as end stones are not pushing on pivot end you are on the correct side, a good test would be to losen the cock screw by 1.5 to 2 turns then observe your amplitude. 

Good luck pal

[Nucejoe]

10 minutes ago, GregG said:

Mainsprings:

The watches are usually running with a good amplitude before servicing, and the mainspring looks good upon inspection, so I don't think thats an issue.

Very right you are.

[Nucejoe]

12 minutes ago, GregG said:

 

Fork Arbor Pivots:

These don't get any lubrication? Why not?

 

Eats 20 degrees of amplitude.

[GregG]

29 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Eats 20 degrees of amplitude.

Why would that happen?  Wouldn't having no lubrication cause an increase in friction, which would rob some of the amplitude?

[nickelsilver]

51 minutes ago, GregG said:

Why would that happen?  Wouldn't having no lubrication cause an increase in friction, which would rob some of the amplitude?

The viscosity of the oil causes it. The fork only moves through about 12 degrees and needs to do it as quickly as possible. Standard practice is no oil on fork pivots.

 

I was working on a JLC 838 that in spite of being ultra thin is usually a good runner. I was missing 30 degrees of amplitude. Turns out I skipped pegging the fork hole jewels (normally I always do it). Pegged, and got my 30 degrees. They looked spotless before pegging too.

[GregG]

48 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The viscosity of the oil causes it. The fork only moves through about 12 degrees and needs to do it as quickly as possible. Standard practice is no oil on fork pivots.

 

I was working on a JLC 838 that in spite of being ultra thin is usually a good runner. I was missing 30 degrees of amplitude. Turns out I skipped pegging the fork hole jewels (normally I always do it). Pegged, and got my 30 degrees. They looked spotless before pegging too.

Interesting, thank you.  What do you use to peg the jewels?  I was thinking taking something extremely fine, like a wire the diameter of a hair, and "flossing" the hole.  And I've seen oils with much lower viscosities, like Esslinger has a 10 cS oil.  I wonder what would happen if that was used.  It's some lubrication, but only 1/15 the viscosity of 9010, which should hopefully not be detrimental to the pallet fork speed, but still give it some lubrication.

[nickelsilver]

Haha, for pegging the best is pegwood. You have to sharpen it with a razor sharp blade, and resharpen between jewels.

 

In over 20 years I don't recall seeing worn fork pivots, and haven't oiled any.

[Nibbler]

As a beginner, I sort of had a similar experience when starting out. Without knowing I contaminated my one dip jar with either grease, oil or both.  The hairsprings came out coated with oil and they acted like they were magnetized. Of course demagnetizing the springs didn't work. Further cleaning did not work as the the one dip was contaminated. After I saw the performance drop on several watches I touched I figured it out. I cleaned the jar and replaced the one dip and the issue went away immediately.

Live and Learn.

Matt

fixed: changed mainspring to hairspring per steve1811uk input. My beginnerism is showing.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Nibbler

[steve1811uk]

51 minutes ago, Nibbler said:

As a beginner, I sort of had a similar experience when starting out. Without knowing I contaminated my one dip jar with either grease, oil or both.  The mainsprings came out coated with oil and they acted like they were magnetized. Of course demagnetizing the springs didn't work. Further cleaning did not work as the the one dip was contaminated. After I saw the performance drop on several watches I touched I figured it out. I cleaned the jar and replaced the one dip and the issue went away immediately.

Live and Learn.

Matt

Do you mean hairsprings?

[jdm]

5 hours ago, GregG said:

Fork Arbor Pivots:

These don't get any lubrication? Why not?

Have a read of our pinned topic:

 

[GregG]

Thank you for all the links.  With respect to oiling the gear train, how can I control how much I put into the pivot?  Everything I do seems to be either so little that I can't even tell if there's any on the oiler, or too much and it makes a puddle inside the jewel recess.

[JohnR725]

what are you using to measure the amplitude?

Then how about an experiment? Find a running watch that you haven't touched yet verify the amplitude. Disassemble it and then put it back together no cleaning no lubrication just put it back together and see if anything has changed?

17 hours ago, GregG said:

I put a small drop of Syntescap 941 on the exit jewel.

one tiny drop isn't enough. Usually recommend one drop every five teeth. This means you have to do it three times to get enough oil.

then you mention the word Timex what other brands of movement are you working on? yes I know you said all of them but I'm just curious what else are you working on what movements?

Then if you want to know a little more about lubrication you might find the video at the link below interesting it's one of three parts.

 

https://youtu.be/_cnr1KachV4

 

 

[GregG]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what are you using to measure the amplitude?

Then how about an experiment? Find a running watch that you haven't touched yet verify the amplitude. Disassemble it and then put it back together no cleaning no lubrication just put it back together and see if anything has changed?

one tiny drop isn't enough. Usually recommend one drop every five teeth. This means you have to do it three times to get enough oil.

then you mention the word Timex what other brands of movement are you working on? yes I know you said all of them but I'm just curious what else are you working on what movements?

Then if you want to know a little more about lubrication you might find the video at the link below interesting it's one of three parts.

 

https://youtu.be/_cnr1KachV4

 

 

Unfortunately I'm measuring the amplitude by eye, not by machine.  It usually ends up being small enough that I can watch the spokes of the balance wheel move back and forth.  The next watch I service I will check out the amplitude and report back here.

I have only worked on one Timex.  Usually the watches I work on are kind of like no-name brands.  So the movement won't have any prominent model # on it, or sometimes no number at all.  More often than not, they're still regular jeweled movements.  But occasionally I will work on a brand name watch, like a Bulova.  Just recently I tried servicing a Bulova 3AK, as well as a watch that coincidentally had a clone of the 3AK.

I will check out the video, thank you.

Edited June 4, 2021 by GregG

[KayMan]

You say you clean with a degreaser.  What do you use exactly?  I've always found it well worth using a cleaner designed for horological use, my choice being Elma 1:9.  Then 2 rinses in deionised water and a final rinse in Elma Suprol and everything comes up sparkling.  There are plenty of good cleaning solutions to choose from, water based and waterless.

[GregG]

1 minute ago, KayMan said:

You say you clean with a degreaser.  What do you use exactly?  I've always found it well worth using a cleaner designed for horological use, my choice being Elma 1:9.  Then 2 rinses in deionised water and a final rinse in Elma Suprol and everything comes up sparkling.  There are plenty of good cleaning solutions to choose from, water based and waterless.

Zep heavy duty citrus degreaser.  The horological ones are very expensive and only come in gallon jugs.  My final rinses are filtered but not deionized.

[JohnR725]

57 minutes ago, GregG said:

Unfortunately I'm measuring the amplitude by eye, not by machine.  It usually ends up being small enough that I can watch the spokes of the balance wheel move back and forth.  The next watch I service I will check out the amplitude and report back here.

the Chinese 1000 or 1900 timing machines are well worth the money. Not just used for timing there used for diagnostic purposes. in other words there are things that you can see with the timing machine that you cannot see by looking at it if you're having a problem and you don't have a timing machine you're denying yourself a really good diagnostic tool and your limiting our ability to help you.

1 hour ago, GregG said:

I have only worked on one Timex.  Usually the watches I work on are kind of like no-name brands.  So the movement won't have any prominent model # on it, or sometimes no number at all.

the reason I ask is because of your work are Timex often they are lower quality movements. Like a pin lever movement which people in the group to work on but a lot of times lower quality movements just have issues running. Not like a lSwiss lever movement.

1 hour ago, GregG said:

Just recently I tried servicing a Bulova 3AK, as well as a watch that coincidentally had a clone of the 3AK

the problem with this movement is it's really tiny. We really should have you start with a Chinese clone of a 6497 something bigger easier to work on easier to see what the problem may or may not be. Working on super tiny watches everything has to be really really perfect if not you're going to have problems.

10 minutes ago, KayMan said:

You say you clean with a degreaser.  What do you use exactly?  I've always found it well worth using a cleaner designed for horological use

 

6 minutes ago, GregG said:

Zep heavy duty citrus degreaser.  The horological ones are very expensive and only come in gallon jugs.  My final rinses are filtered but not deionized

now we get the something interesting don't we? Where you're having a problem with every single watch we have to look at all the common things. You using a cleaning fluid it's not designed for horological use. Then you rinsing in water which you would do with a water-based cleaner.

17 minutes ago, KayMan said:

Elma Suprol and everything comes up sparkling

here we have a final rinse in a chemical that's not water which would help to get the water off the nice clean steel parts really really fast . My problem with water and super clean steel parts is there is a likelihood of rust. This is where getting the water off as fast as possible like using this would really help.

 

 

now we get two something interesting don't we? You're using a product that's not designed for horological use. You're having a common problem with all of the watches you work on. That means anything common now becomes suspicious like is it that you're cleaning fluid is the problem?

this is where I now think just disassemble a running watch and then put it back together. He not going to distribute the lubrication and off that that's going to be an issue. We can at least

 

[GregG]

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the Chinese 1000 or 1900 timing machines are well worth the money. Not just used for timing there used for diagnostic purposes. in other words there are things that you can see with the timing machine that you cannot see by looking at it if you're having a problem and you don't have a timing machine you're denying yourself a really good diagnostic tool and your limiting our ability to help you.

It's on my Amazon wishlist already

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

now we get the something interesting don't we? Where you're having a problem with every single watch we have to look at all the common things. You using a cleaning fluid it's not designed for horological use. Then you rinsing in water which you would do with a water-based cleaner.

I will certainly say that it is a possibility, but I'm not 100% convinced that it is.  I've used other cleaning fluids including soap, alcohol, and other jewelry cleaning concentrates and have had the same issues.  Yes, they are not horological cleaners, but I don't imagine that these chemically very dissimilar fluids would all coincidentally lead to the same symptoms. 

The degreaser I'm using now is what I've landed on, after all others haven't done a very good job either.  I've also had some watches that I've knocked out of the park where they're running textbook perfectly.  But those are the exceptions to the rule.

Edited June 4, 2021 by GregG

[Plato]

22 hours ago, Nibbler said:

As a beginner, I sort of had a similar experience when starting out. Without knowing I contaminated my one dip jar with either grease, oil or both.  The hairsprings came out coated with oil and they acted like they were magnetized. Of course demagnetizing the springs didn't work. Further cleaning did not work as the the one dip was contaminated. After I saw the performance drop on several watches I touched I figured it out. I cleaned the jar and replaced the one dip and the issue went away immediately.

Live and Learn.

Matt

fixed: changed mainspring to hairspring per steve1811uk input. My beginnerism is showing.

Could some of your (Greg) tools or something on your bench be magnetised? Every time you work on a watch, the hairspring could be getting magnetised... I know the rate gains a hell of a lot when the hairspring is magnetised, maybe the amplitude drops accordingly too?

As above, a timegrapher would show you instantly.