I'm stuck (pun intended) working on Elgin 554 movement

[Max50916]

Hello all! I've been having issues with an Elgin 554 movement, it's one of the military issue ones from wwii. I received the watch in run/stop condition and did a full teardown/cleaning/oiling. The watch will sometimes run for a couple hours to a couple days before getting "stuck". There's an actual tension where something is getting out of line and can be felt when gently trying to adjust the hands (the hands are not stuck on each other, it's an internal issue). I've tried opening it up and adjusting it probably 5 times but nothing seems to do the trick. 

Has anyone else had a similar issue? I've tried tightening down the bridge that holds down the setting gears (don't know the exact name of that but it's circled in blue).

I've tried removing those gears and trying to re-install the canon pinion multiple times (I think that the canon pinion may be slipping out of true and that's the issue?) It's hard to tell exactly what it is though. I've also tried pinching it a bit tighter so that it's a tighter fit over the center wheel pivot

I've also tried putting in one to two dial washers in case the hour wheel (I think thats what it's called) is popping out of whack.

I'm really at a loss as to what could be the issue/how to fix it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[jdrichard]

4 minutes ago, Max50916 said:

Hello all! I've been having issues with an Elgin 554 movement, it's one of the military issue ones from wwii. I received the watch in run/stop condition and did a full teardown/cleaning/oiling. The watch will sometimes run for a couple hours to a couple days before getting "stuck". There's an actual tension where something is getting out of line and can be felt when gently trying to adjust the hands (the hands are not stuck on each other, it's an internal issue). I've tried opening it up and adjusting it probably 5 times but nothing seems to do the trick. 

Has anyone else had a similar issue? I've tried tightening down the bridge that holds down the setting gears (don't know the exact name of that but it's circled in blue).

I've tried removing those gears and trying to re-install the canon pinion multiple times (I think that the canon pinion may be slipping out of true and that's the issue?) It's hard to tell exactly what it is though. I've also tried pinching it a bit tighter so that it's a tighter fit over the center wheel pivot

I've also tried putting in one to two dial washers in case the hour wheel (I think thats what it's called) is popping out of whack.

I'm really at a loss as to what could be the issue/how to fix it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Run the train to make sure everything is running smoothly. Do this without the pallet fork installed. Then install the balance and see if this causes the issue. I had an issue that I thought was related to the hands, etc and it turned out to be the hairspring touching the balance cock because the stud was not fully in place. You need to break down the diagnosis.

[jdrichard]

8 minutes ago, Max50916 said:

Hello all! I've been having issues with an Elgin 554 movement, it's one of the military issue ones from wwii. I received the watch in run/stop condition and did a full teardown/cleaning/oiling. The watch will sometimes run for a couple hours to a couple days before getting "stuck". There's an actual tension where something is getting out of line and can be felt when gently trying to adjust the hands (the hands are not stuck on each other, it's an internal issue). I've tried opening it up and adjusting it probably 5 times but nothing seems to do the trick. 

Has anyone else had a similar issue? I've tried tightening down the bridge that holds down the setting gears (don't know the exact name of that but it's circled in blue).

I've tried removing those gears and trying to re-install the canon pinion multiple times (I think that the canon pinion may be slipping out of true and that's the issue?) It's hard to tell exactly what it is though. I've also tried pinching it a bit tighter so that it's a tighter fit over the center wheel pivot

I've also tried putting in one to two dial washers in case the hour wheel (I think thats what it's called) is popping out of whack.

I'm really at a loss as to what could be the issue/how to fix it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Also check that there are no bent teeth on the mainspring barrel or any other wheel. This could cause a random failure.

[Max50916]

1 hour ago, jdrichard said:

Run the train to make sure everything is running smoothly. Do this without the pallet fork installed. Then install the balance and see if this causes the issue. I had an issue that I thought was related to the hands, etc and it turned out to be the hairspring touching the balance cock because the stud was not fully in place. You need to break down the diagnosis.

I'll try that thank you! When I was assembling I didn't notice any issues in the train but will try again, it seems strange that it would work for sometimes 48 hours or so before going out of whack

[jdrichard]

8 minutes ago, Max50916 said:

I'll try that thank you! When I was assembling I didn't notice any issues in the train but will try again, it seems strange that it would work for sometimes 48 hours or so before going out of whack

Perhaps stops when the power is low?  also try winding it every 4 hours to about 80%. A bent tooth could be the issues as the mainspring turns around 7 times in a full wind and the tooth could go through when there is plenty of power and not when the power is at say 50%.  Intermittent failures are the hardest.

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, Max50916 said:

There's an actual tension where something is getting out of line and can be felt when gently trying to adjust the hands (the hands are not stuck on each other, it's an internal issue). I've tried opening it up and adjusting it probably 5 times but nothing seems to do the trick.

Such tension can be easily explained if you didn't put some oil before replacing the cannon pinion.

"pinching it a bit tighter" makes things worse.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Poljot

[HectorLooi]

I have a pocketwatch like that too. It was due to a worn pivot hole. Haven't gotten down to rebushing or converting it into a jewelled hole.

Good luck.

[Poljot]

3 hours ago, Max50916 said:

There's an actual tension where something is getting out of line and can be felt when gently trying to adjust the hands (the hands are not stuck on each other, it's an internal issue).

Btw, your winding pinion appears to be misaligned or worn, or perhaps from another watch?

[JohnR725]

Another thing to do is only partially assembled the watch. In other words only put in what is necessary to make the watch run don't put the Canon pinion on. Then it's also nice to have a timing machine put it on the timing machine see what it's doing and let it run overnight And then put it on the timing machine again and see what it's doing. Especially noticing the amplitude at the end of 24 hours.

 

[Max50916]

11 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Perhaps stops when the power is low?  also try winding it every 4 hours to about 80%. A bent tooth could be the issues as the mainspring turns around 7 times in a full wind and the tooth could go through when there is plenty of power and not when the power is at say 50%.  Intermittent failures are the hardest.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a power issue, it sometimes gets stuck at pretty much full wind and it's quite a sticky stuck you can feel when trying to move the hands

[Max50916]

10 hours ago, Poljot said:

Such tension can be easily explained if you didn't put some oil before replacing the cannon pinion.

"pinching it a bit tighter" makes things worse.

Noted about that thank you! I did oil the cannon pinion during the oiling process

[Max50916]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Another thing to do is only partially assembled the watch. In other words only put in what is necessary to make the watch run don't put the Canon pinion on. Then it's also nice to have a timing machine put it on the timing machine see what it's doing and let it run overnight And then put it on the timing machine again and see what it's doing. Especially noticing the amplitude at the end of 24 hours.

 

That's a good idea I'll try that. Also still need to get a timing machine! Just getting started so working my way towards all the necessary tools! Just have the basics for now

[Max50916]

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I have a pocketwatch like that too. It was due to a worn pivot hole. Haven't gotten down to rebushing or converting it into a jewelled hole.

Good luck.

Oof I hope it's not that, how could I tell if that's the case for sure? Visual inspection?

[Max50916]

9 hours ago, Poljot said:

Btw, your winding pinion appears to be misaligned or worn, or perhaps from another watch?

This photo was taken before I cleaned it (just wanted to give you guys something to work with for context) so it may have been gunked up but I'll take a closer look when I open it back up, thanks!

[HectorLooi]

53 minutes ago, Max50916 said:

Oof I hope it's not that, how could I tell if that's the case for sure? Visual inspection?

You can check visually for any pivot holes that have become oval or irregular.

Another way is to remove the plates and check each individual wheel by swiveling it gently and observing the amount of tilt of the wheel. Please be very gentle doing this, you wouldn't want to break off any pivots.

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, Max50916 said:

This photo was taken before I cleaned it (just wanted to give you guys something to work with for context) so it may have been gunked up but I'll take a closer look when I open it back up, thanks!

Yes, please check and, perhaps, take another photo to compare. Also, you may need to reverse your "pinching" by loosening up the cannon pinion.

[jdrichard]

11 hours ago, Max50916 said:

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a power issue, it sometimes gets stuck at pretty much full wind and it's quite a sticky stuck you can feel when trying to move the hands

Dirt in one of the leaves of one of the Pinions?

[jdrichard]

9 hours ago, Poljot said:

Yes, please check and, perhaps, take another photo to compare. Also, you may need to reverse your "pinching" by loosening up the cannon pinion.

Another one is the hour hand or the second hand pipe touching the Face Hole

[Poljot]

3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Another one is the hour hand or the second hand pipe touching the Face Hole

Could you please elaborate? Are you referring to Dial?

[jdrichard]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:23 AM, Poljot said:

Btw, your winding pinion appears to be misaligned or worn, or perhaps from another watch?

looks like the pinion gear is just tilted and causing the gap with the clutch wheel.

[rduckwor]

Did you carefully examine the jewel bearings/bushings for dirt/damage.  I always look at mine under the microscope after cleaning.  I also examine the wheels, teeth, leaves and pivots.  Very often I find a fiber adhered to one of the wheels.  IIRC (and I should as I just finished a 554) it is a 17 jewel movement.  All too often, one of the jewels will get fractured or chipped - frequently a balance jewel since it is not shock protected.  Difficult to see without high magnification.

 

A close inspection will help here and a decent microscope that will allow you to trans-illumine the jewels is a great asset.  Good Luck.

RMD