Key wound Pocket Watch, advice / help please ...

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

Today I was handed a key wound pocket watch, or rather what was left of this none-runner, with the question if I could fix it up again .....

It's a cylinder movement, damaged porcelain dial with both feet intact, has a partial hour hand, a replacement seconds-hand , no crystal and a silver case. Two watchmaker marks in the back lid; Megol '84 and 15/8/'66. Looking at the state of the watch, I don't think the Megol '84 was 1984, but more likely 1884 (?).

Currently I'm stripping the movement to assess the damage;

The main-spring was fully wound and seems intact. The balance-staff pivots seem intact, however when lifting the balance-bridge only the hairspring came up, the hairspring-collect lost (probably due to too much play) grip with the balance staff. (Needs to be looked at at a later stage)

Once the balance wheel & cylinder were removed, the wheel-train seems to rotate fine.

Currently I'm trying to open the spring barrel, but encountered a system which I haven't seen before and don't know how to open the barrel ?

The arbor seems to go through the bridge and is connected to a ratchet; both ratchet and arbor seem to be one piece ?? How do I open the barrel and remove the spring ?

Top-view of the barrel-bridge with ratchet, click and winding pinion;

Side view;

Bottom of the spring barrel & bridge;

Any help will be greatly appreciated !

If I were to proceed with the restoration, another question would be how to line up the balance-wheel with the hairspring so the cylinder is "in beat" ?

Anyway, that would be a bit further down the line, first the damage assessment ......

Hope to hear .....

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Looks like barrel lid is screwed on the arbour.

[watchweasol]

Hi From memory I think the ratchet wheel is a friction fit on the square and will tap through with a brass or plastic hammer... Setting the spring onto the cylinder there is usually a pip on the balance rim for alignment purposes same as the platform escapement version,  I shall need to read up on that procedure.  It looks a nice old piece and should come up quite well when polished.

[nickelsilver]

This is a suspended barrel, held only by the bridge. What looks like a screw slot on the lower end of the arbor is what's left of the hole that took a pin to hold the stopworks finger in place.

The lid snaps of, pry in one of the openings. The hook is screwed onto the arbor, it will have two holes to take a spanner. Hold the square, and unscrew the hook. As the adjustable pin spanners are hard to come by, you can grasp the hook with flat pliers lined with paper tape or wrap paper (or copper even better) around the hook.

Sometimes they will unscrew just with stout nickel or brass tweezers grabbing the hook; at least in wristwatches.

[oldhippy]

This is what as known a 5 bar p/w movement about 1880. With the barrel cap removed the arbor should unscrew from its center part. Some can be very tight so be careful when under taking this, some refuse to move and you might have to clean it in your machine partly dismantled.  

[Nucejoe]

 As you turn the balance wheel to the point that escape wheel starts to move, where clock-anticlock turns shows you the interval within which balance wheel should receive impulse energy, the midpoint of this interval is your TDC. Immediately passed TDC, balance wheel is in beat.

To sustain oscillation, this is where all escapements, regardless of the design, are to deliver energy to the balance wheel.

I  mark both ends of the said interval on main plate or bridge with respect to the point on balance wheel, where you saw impulse got delivered. Manufacturers normally mark the wheel with a dot.

[VWatchie]

The tide of history! Best of luck!

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 As you turn the balance wheel to the point that escape wheel starts to move, where clock-anticlock turns shows you the interval within which balance wheel should receive impulse energy, the midpoint of this interval is your TDC. Immediately passed TDC, balance wheel is in beat.

To sustain oscillation, this is where all escapements, regardless of the design, are to deliver energy to the balance wheel.

I  mark both ends of the said interval on main plate or bridge with respect to the point on balance wheel, where you saw impulse got delivered. Manufacturers normally mark the wheel with a dot.

In other words, first , find the position on balance wheel that escape teeth engages with the rest of escapements mech, be it pallet, cylinder or else. Principle are dynamically the same, only mech designs vary. 

The interval during which, escape wheel interacts with the rest of the escape mech, is bound by drop and lock ie: the wheel goes through drop and lock, the rest of that period  it just sits there and cheers the oscillator do a good amplitude.

 

[Endeavor]

Thank you all for your suggestions and help

The barrel-lid was indeed a "snap-on" and it was "snapped-on" well

The arbor was perhaps different as from what I understood out of NickelSilver's description. It still may well be that the arbor is screwed onto the ratchet-wheel "driving-spindle", but it may also be that the arbor is "pinned" onto a spindle and that outer-end of the securing-pin also acts for the arbor-hook (?).

The normal bridle spring was unhooked and removed. Instead of dismantling the barrel assembly any further, I'll stick to Oldhippy's advice and clean the assembly "As-Is"

As for the cylinder balance; I haven't come to that part yet, but there are plenty of marks on either side on the balance-wheel rim and a pin which most likely indicates the center of the cylinder, to be lined up with the center-line of the escape-wheel (?)

I'm sure that when working on and lining up the balance wheel, some of these marks will start to make some sense () and NuceJoe suggestions.

The hairspring needs a tiny work, the first coil goes a bit tight around the collet, most likely the reason for the slight off-center. I was thinking of giving the hair-spring-collet a few small punch-marks around the edge to reduce the inner-diameter slightly. The bend regulator-pin sticks outside the regulator key, allowing the hairspring to come out of the regulator arm.

I'll be back with further updates and / or more questions

Thank you very much so far !!

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

Than there is the pocket watch case ....... I'm not sure whether it is silver or (has been) silver-plated?

There is a Hallmark in the back-cover, but Google searches didn't yield conclusive answers. I do have a silver-dip, but if the base material is something else, the results could be "catastrophic".

I'll try to polish an edge, but won't go any further until I know for sure .....

Anybody seen this 2mm high hallmark and knows what it is ?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

I expect it is silver but not English, more likely to be French or Swiss. 

[Endeavor]

Another Gremlin popped up during my investigation, a bend balance-staff pinion

Leave it and see how the watch performs? I don't have a watch-maker lathe or other fancy rotating tools.

If I brake it, that's the end of this story ....... any "save" suggestions ?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

I started polishing an edge and that went fine. I continued on the rest of the case with Silver-polish and the case & bezels appear to be silver I haven't gone "full on", not until the movement is a runner.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

Oh dear, not only bent but also worn. The cylinder is made up of 3 parts, two plugs at each end and the center part. They are very brittle, I can tell you if you try and bend it, it will snap. Finding a replacement will be very hard. Knocking the old plug out you need cylinder punches for that, stakes from an ordinary will not fit.

I think you have an impossible task. 

[Endeavor]

I'm not sure whether it is going to be used or as a nice mantle-piece which preferably runs? I guess the only option left is to see if & how it runs and ask the owner on how to proceed and what the idea is ........

Indeed, bending it back is very high risk and than the question remains how much is there to gain? For sure, by bending there is a lot to loose !

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Endeavor

[vinn3]

17 hours ago, oldhippy said:

This is what as known a 5 bar p/w movement about 1880. With the barrel cap removed the arbor should unscrew from its center part. Some can be very tight so be careful when under taking this, some refuse to move and you might have to clean it in your machine partly dismantled.  

     you could use penitrating oil AND then heat.   vin

[Endeavor]

And now we know the reason why the hair-spring was "free-floating", instead of being behind the regulator pin. The tip of the regulator-key (boot) is missing as well .......

Any idea's ?

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

Soft solder a tiny shim of brass so the end just covers the pin and file to shape. Or you could just bend the pin so it touches the other brass part of the regulator. After all the hairspring should be part ways up and not at the bottom so it could slip out. 

[Endeavor]

Thanks Oldhippy ...... you are as always very helpful and knowledgeable; For many years already a bacon on WRT !

I managed to reduce the ID of the hairspring collet, perhaps not an award winning job, but it does works. At least the slot is open and the collet position can be adjusted again.

The with the cap-stones cleaned & lubricated, I lined up the balance wheel, pretty much center escape-wheel .... depends a bit on the position of the regulator, but it should be enough to see if the movement runs ... or not.

I may just do the bending of the regulator pin against the boot ..... I guess with this watch we are not talking about chronometer-"accuracy" . If the movement runs, we see later about some fine-tuning and perhaps sorting the hair-spring out.

Edit; while looking at the picture, I notice 3x dots on the right-hand side of the balance wheel. I seem to be spot on with the center-dot ....

Edited March 8, 2020 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

If you can get it within say 2 minutes a day with a cylinder movement, that would be acceptable,  as you know it is not compensated so the weather will play its part. 

[Endeavor]

Hmmm ........ The bend balance pivot causes so much wobble that the balance wheel touches and gets stuck on top of the escape-wheel bridge. Next to that, the end-shake is excessive  (worn-pivots & jewels).

Most-likely the watch has been dropped causing the bend pivot and poor maintenance/age caused a lot of wear-& tear. Also the escape-wheel is not 100% true either and shows a wobble.

Dial-Up it "runs"-ish, Dial-Down it grinds directly to a hold on top of the escape-wheel bridge.

Since my tricks-toolbox is getting empty, I will inform the owner that this beaten-up PW is beyond my capabilities ....

The good news; it's always fun to work on such a piece of history and new lessons are learned. There is no harm in gaining more experience

I'll let it up to the owner to decide how to proceed.

For now, thanks all for your help in this rescue attempt !!

With kind regards ......

Edited March 8, 2020 by Endeavor