Watchmakers Lathe Or Mini Lathe

[watchweasol]

Hi Dadistic      you will have to be carefull, some other lathe sneaked in and that's the result although if it happens again it could be profitable.  You will have to find the father !!!!!!!!?.

[gary17]

Hey guys 

i have decided to buy a second hand lathe from an auction. At the moment i am still looking. The more i read the more confused i get. 

At first i will use it just to polish and clean up small parts and then i hope to move on to repairing small watch parts, (replacing staffs etc).

The most confusing part is the motor. I like the idea of the pedal for speed control. But what power motor?  Plus i do not have the money to spend a fortune on extra parts .

Like what tools are really necessary ?

What i have my eye on is a 6mm lathe or 8mm . What does that mean is it the size of the chuck? The metal it will hold?

And on ebay someone recommended a guy who refurbishes old sewing machine motors.

Do i need ventilation?

What i need is for a hobbyist to make and fix small watch movement pieces or pieces you cannot now source.

Any help appreciated.

cheers

gary

[Tudor]

Hi Gary.
 

8mm seems to be the most popular collet size for these lathes. I have also seen 10mm but that seems less popular, along with 6mm. The only reason it may matter is it limits collet choices when you want more later, and also the diameter stock that can pass thru the collet. 
 

You don’t really need “variable speed on the fly” (like with a pedal) with a lathe. I think that’s a waste of money. You know the diameter of your work, and you need constant surface speed. Plenty of charts in machining handbooks. Basically, small diameters spin fast and large ones spin slow. “Real” lathes will have different pulleys and/or gears to set the chuck (or collet) speed. And there may be a high and low range in that pulley or gear set to double the available speeds. But the motor is always spinning at the same RPM. 

Hobby lathes may have a VFD or simple potentiometer resistor to adjust speed. These are simple, but the motor may not be operating at its most efficient RPM, and larger diameter (slow speed) cuts can stall the motor. 
 

You should read up, and now you can watch videos on YouTube to get comfortable. 
 

and for simple polishing, you can use a drill or dremel to spin the parts until you are ready. 

[jdm]

Related discussions below

 

 

[gary17]

Cheers guys

Alot to consider

[Jdg123]

Hi, 

since I’m getting more and more into watch repairs and would like to try myself in replacing a broken balance staff I have been looking at different techniques to punch out the old one. All said the best way seems to be to turn down the Balance hub in a Mathe. I actually have a Lathe at home, but it is a Hobbymat md65, so not actually a watchmakers lathe. Do you guys think I could use it for that task (and maybe in the future for making balance staffs or pivots for wheels? If so what equipment would I need to make it work? 

Looking forward to reading some of your thoughts. cheers! 
 

p.s. also added some pictures of the model I have...

[oldhippy]

You need a watchmakers lathe. I only have a Unimat 3 lathe now and I wouldn't dream of using that to make a watch balance staff. 

[Tudor]

It’s all about tolerance (T.I.R.) and repeatability. You cannot make pivots which are .005” diameter when your machine run out is half that. 

Traditionally the parts were made by hand, with gravers. I wouldn’t attempt that personally, unless you just wanted to make the part, but not actually fit it to a watch. I have respect for those who can make these parts by hand  

repeatability (I guess reliability) when using a cross slide- if you dial in 0.001” on diameter, is that what you get? Sloppy ways on a lathe are double jeopardy- you can index (go in) more deeply than the hash marks indicate; and also the lathe can “pull” the tool into the work further than intended. The shape, sharpness, rake angle, feed (how much does the tip move down the length per revolution) etc. are all important to make accurate cuts and produce a reasonable surface finish. You don’t want to have to leave it .010” oversized so you can file, sand and polish as needed.   

I have a very reliable lathe at my disposal but I know better than to try this. But I probably could make it pretty decent and would still need a Jacot tool to size and burnish the pivots. No way I can get the surface speed to properly finish small pivots like that.  

If you study basic machining manuals (probably available at the library) you will learn about all this stuff- surface speed, infeed, tool prep based on material, post machine hardening (if needed) and so on. Heck, I don’t know how many times I went onto a machine after someone else and the cutting tip is not on center... Also how best to make a precise part- make all the features of the part without removing it from the chuck and then part it off when done. Knowing which cuts to start with, on a complex part, is a good skill too. Sometimes you have to make a nest or arbor to hold the part for second operations... Just owning the best piece of equipment for the job does not guarantee success. Unfortunately. 

[xlr8r]

Hello, I'm a youngster who is training himself to become a watchmaker and i want to learn how to cut gear, pivots etc because of my ultimate goal. I was looking out for lathes locally and came across a Myford Super 7 for a really good price and thought to my self can that one be used as a watchmakers lathe and if it can't what makes a wathcmakers lathe spesifically watchmakers lathe. I couldn't find any proper answer for that on internet.

Thanks for your time and help in advance genuinely appericate it

[nickelsilver]

Watchmaker's lathes are always quite small. They will have a center height between 40 and 70 millimeters, with most being around 50. They will take collets in the headstock, most commonly some variant of an 8mm collet (that's the body diameter). They are particularly well suited to hand turning, where you hold the cutting tool in your hand and use a tool rest, the T rest, to support it as you guide it. They can also be used with slide rests like more conventional lathes. They are generally capable of fairly high speeds, though despite what many believe you don't need much more than a couple thousand rpm. The spindles run very true and round. They are overall exceptionally well suited to making very small parts.

 

The Myford you mention is a great lathe, and is favored by many clockmakers as well as watchmakers who tend to "make" more things. Having both would be the best of both worlds. I have a Schaublin 102, which is 102 center height, taking 20mm collets. When something is too small to be comfortable on it I use my watchmaker lathe. When something is too big for the watchmaker lathe, it goes in the 102.

[xlr8r]

Thanks for your reply. So as far as i can understand that Super 7 can do that but i would be over compansating for a beginner? or i don't need in this case? If that's the case then looks like i need to look for an proper watchmakers lathe rather than Super 7 because of my needs correct? Schaublin 102 is an awesome lathe. Is it possible to cut gears and pivots for pocket watch movements and wrist watch movements with it? I did a quiet bit of videos and did research on that one and learned that you can cut gears for clocks but i gues couldn't sat the same thing for these... You said Myford Super 7 is for watchmakers who tend to make more thing can you explain that to me please?

[nickelsilver]

Almost any lathe (and/or milling machine)can be set up to index any number of divisions desired, and in the case of a lathe, a live spindle (milling attachment) can be fitted to the slide to hold a cutter for making gears. Most watchmaker lathe manufacturers offered indexing equipment and milling attachments for the slides. Schaublin offers a number of indexing arrangements and milling attachments. There are a fair few published mods for getting a Myford to index comfortably and for adapting a live spindle to the slide.

 

For gear cutting or really any milling operation a watchmaker's lathe quickly shows its limitations. Most simply aren't rigid enough to do a good job, and also things get quite cramped when you have all the gear set up on the little lathe. I personally use a small milling machine for gear cutting; the machine weighs a couple hundred kgs, and it's very comfortable to use making pinions with 6 leaves and a diameter of 0.50mm. Likewise a larger lathe like a 102 or Schaublin 70 or Myford has enough mass and space that it's much nicer than on a small watchmaker's lathe. You might have run across some videos of Steffen Pahlow. He does do pretty much everything on a "watchmaker's lathe" but he has a Lorch KD50, which is overall much more massive and convenient than the average 50mm center height machine. Also, rare, and expensive haha.

 

 

1 hour ago, xlr8r said:

You said Myford Super 7 is for watchmakers who tend to make more thing can you explain that to me please?

If you want to make anything much larger than about 6mm in diameter it's far nicer to do on a larger machine. The Myford is also screwcutting, so you can do all kinds of things that would only be possible with awkward and rare attachments for the smaller machines. You wouldn't want to make a balance staff on the Myford (though it's technically possible), and you wouldn't want to cut a piece of 20mm diameter steel in a watchmaker lathe.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, xlr8r said:

Myford Super 7 for a really good price

If it is a really good price go for it it's a good lathe.

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Having both would be the best of both worlds

Unfortunately if you're just starting out you're going to get the watchmaker's lathe. But if you had the money I agree with the above statement.

1 hour ago, xlr8r said:

over compansating for a beginner

In the middle of doing your answer I realized something? Do you have any machine tool experience at all?

2 hours ago, xlr8r said:

gear, pivots

We have a problem? If you want to make balance staffs Turn pivots then the simplest is a watchmaker's lathe.

Gear cutting that's an interesting subject. It's commonly assumed that if you going to cut a watchmakers gear you would cut it on a watchmakers lathe. But other than an occasional gear it would be better to have something different. Usually something bigger and heavier is better. For instance when my father was alive he added gear cutting capability to an 11 inch machinists lathe. When I needed a watch gear he cut it on the 11 inch lathe. Even made an adapter for holding the collets found on watchmaker's lathe but I definitely wouldn't hand turn with a graver on this it be better to use a watchmaker's lathe.

Strangely enough we were discussing gear cutting earlier today I'm the post the link to that discussion towards the bottom.

Notice this this is considered inexpensive

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/lathe-vector-watchmakers-48-collets-hl11

Where I work we have one of these it's not a bad lathe. Although I really wouldn't want to cut a gear on it and we don't have the gear cutting indexing stuff anyway.

Always interesting on this discussion group while I'm composing a reply somebody beats me to the reply. You'll notice that nickelsilver Was commenting the same thing I am. The basic watchmaker's lathe works fine for most the stuff watchmakers are doing. But as soon as you go to gear cutting even though like the vector lathe has an attachment it is not a desirable tool. 

Then nickelsilver Made the remark about a milling machine a small milling machine is definitely a worthy investments if you want to make stuff. Between a decent lathe like the super seven and a milling machine providing you understand how to use them and you have enough imagination to grasp what can be made with them then almost anything is possible.

 

Then because I was searching for something you get a second link to another discussion a while back the vector lathe appears to go by another name. The problem I have with the Chinese and I think I said that in the discussion found at the link below is quality differences. I don't know what the watchmakers level whether there are all identical or whether there is a quality difference. Because in some of the bigger Chinese tools there is a definite quality difference depending upon who sells it because they request a better quality and of course you would pay more typically.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/18422-help-with-24-jewel-bunn-special

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7269-cutting-a-gear-on-a-sincere-lathe/

 

 

 

 

[Angrybear]

Hi All, 

I need to buy a lathe. I will need it for adapting cases, making movement rings and making bezels, and possibly crowns. It won’t be used for watchmaker duties (although I need one for that as well at some point). 
I would prefer something small as space is an issue, and I can’t see myself turning anything more than about 50mm in diameter. Budget is a max of about £1250 plus a bit more for tooling. It will need to be comfortable working with stainless steel and I feel precision is quite important when making parts for watch cases. I had my heart set on a proxxon pd250, but they seem to be out of stock everywhere and I need something in the next week or so. I would prefer to buy new as well. The sherline 4000 series look a little small as does the proxxon pd150. I also doubt the precision of the Chinese offerings but would be happy to be proven wrong as they are plentiful. 
What do you guys use? What do you recommend? Am I wrong regarding Chinese mini lathes (eg Clarke cl300 or axminster sc2)?

[JohnR725]

I know it's a silly question but out of curiosity do you have any Lathe experience?

I think you should probably do some research look at YouTube videos on the various Lathes see what they can do because your specifications are really interesting? Turning 50 mm stainless steel on a tiny lathe would be interesting for instance your cuts would have to be really really light. Not saying it can't be done it's amazing what people can do with tiny lathes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Angrybear]

Thank you for replying John. Ive been trying to research this for about 6 months now. Ive watched countless videos but haven't found anyone doing this on the specific lathes I'm looking at. Most videos appear to be from model makers turning brass or aluminium. I don't know whether that is due to the fact that it can't be done, or there is not much call for it.

My experience on engineering lathes is very limited. When I was at university studying design I had to do a module in the metal workshop and spent quite a bit of time on various machines. The only lathes I had access to were the huge industrial lathes they had, but didn't spend a lot of time on them as they terrified me quite frankly. This was about 25 years ago now, before the modern Chinese mini lathe became so popular and affordable.

I do have a lot of experience with wood turning lathes having owned a wood workshop for a number of years, but these are a very different kettle of fish.

Im spending a lot of time modifying watch cases at the moment, and I would really like the ability to be able to make small adjustments here and there. For example I have a case I would like to take 0.5mm off the opening to accept a larger dial, and another I would like to change the profile of the bezel, one I would like to adjust the case back. None of the jobs I want to do really require removing a lot of material, I certainly don't intend on turning a case from scratch.

I get the feeling you know a lot about this subject. What advice can you offer me?

[oldhippy]

You can turn stainless steel on the Unimat SL or the newer model the Unimat 3 which I have.  You can pick one up on ebay. From what I have watched and heard Chinese lathes are best left alone unless you want to waste your money. Turning wood is nothing like working on metal. If you have little experience you need to start turning with brass, the tools play a very impotent part, don't forget the more you practice the better you will get.   

[jdm]

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

I had my heart set on a proxxon pd250, but they seem to be out of stock everywhere and I need something in the next week or so.

I recommend against Proxxon lathes because these are built with lots of plastic parts for the hobbyist doing light work, and very much overpriced for what you get.

 

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

I would prefer to buy new as well.

Before doing that I would have a good look at the used market for stuff that is want to do, you can check and move yourself. There many types from the past that would do perfectly what you want, as good as a new one. in The UK check well the classified on lathes.co.uk (Tony's).

 

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

The sherline 4000 series look a little small

Not only the lathe is small, isn't very rigid also, with the bed being made of aluminum. But with no doubt has the best marketing and range of of accessories. For something in the same size range and made in the USA, look at the TAIG lathes, built to do do not to look, I have bought accessories from a very friendly dealer, Nick Carter, look up his page full of relevant links. It is also sold in the UK by rebadged importer with an high mark-up.

 

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

I also doubt the precision of the Chinese offerings but would be happy to be proven wrong as they are plentiful.

Yes that is wrong. The precision and build quality of thee Chinese mini lathes is not much different from Proxxon. The contrary advice comes from biased people that has never owned or used one. I have the SIEG C0 (copy of Unimat 3) and it came with a QC sheets showing the tolerances found, these were correct and small. You see tons of people doing great work with Chinese lathes, mini or bigger ones. Of course you can buy something more precise, check Schaublin, or Hardhinge and their copies, only issue these cost maybe USD20K plus shipping and setting. 

 

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

What do you guys use? What do you recommend?

I have the above mentioned Sieg C0 and would not recommend unless you are OK with:

not threading
not reversing
not universal accessories, (get ripped for a 40 bucks tailstock small chuck) and you will need a lot of them
not cutting ferrous stock above 4cm diameter (no stepped pulley!)
fiddling in a limited space for almost all work.

An original Unimat 3 would be exactly the same, but having an even smaller motor, and with the prices of the original accessories maybe 10 time their objective value.

That being said, it can be fitted with ER11 collets and do clock (almost wristwatch watch) with good precision. I have show some example in my thread below. I had bought it as a way to get my feet wet before investing more, it worked very well for that, and I don't regret the purchase. Only, if I had bought a good, powerful (that is very important as you will find lather) mini lathe, I would have done all I needed as well, and some more. In fact I bought a bigger lathe/mill anyway.

 

 

20 hours ago, Angrybear said:

Am I wrong regarding Chinese mini lathes (eg Clarke cl300 or axminster sc2)?

 

You won't be wrong with an Sieg lathe, especially if equipped with a powerful motor. However they cost a bit more than other Chinese, and  some accessories are not totally standard.  Check also arceuroetrade.co.uk and Warco, they are more for semi- and professional customers.

That being said, If I was a total beginner to benchtop turning I would also consider buying a cheap Vevor super-offer that comes with 4 jaws independent chuck, quick change tool post, measuring tools, etc. These may need a bit of cleaning and caring to get to their best, but the value is unbeatable, and believe me, as you move on the ladder, tooling cost adds up pretty quickly.

Another model that triggered my curiosity was the Sieg C1 which can thread, but in the end it's not much different from the C), not enough accessories, not standard, very very few people buy it and for good reasons, in the end a "7 x 10" is better.

 

[oldhippy]

I was just pointing out what I have watched and heard about Chinese lathes. It wasn't biased at all in fact was other users opinion.

 

 

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I was just pointing out what I have watched and heard about Chinese lathes. It wasn't biased at all in fact was other users opinion.

Well the point I was making is that you had become biased based on other's say. You are welcome to post links to articles, videos, etc,  supporting this view. I have collected many which are actually about the opposite.
As mentioned my direct, hands-one experience on two different Chinese lathes is in the long thread linked above. In short, every single time the work didn't come out as it should have, it was my fault or limitation, not the machine.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Angrybear said:

Im spending a lot of time modifying watch cases at the moment, and I would really like the ability to be able to make small adjustments here and there. For example I have a case I would like to take 0.5mm off the opening to accept a larger dial, and another I would like to change the profile of the bezel, one I would like to adjust the case back. None of the jobs I want to do really require removing a lot of material, I certainly don't intend on turning a case from scratch.

It appears to be the discussions been hijacked and sent to a new location. Seeing as how you're here now might as will go back the first page scanned through see if there's anything interesting.

Then from the paragraph above that changes things a little bit in that. Turning 50 mm of stainless steel on the small lathe can be challenging like if you were going to make a watch case.

 

10 minutes ago, jdm said:

cheap Vevor super

I'm obviously not looking in the right place? Here's a vector lathe unfortunately is not cheap. Plus it comes with a whole bunch a bonus accessories that would be nice to have but you probably don't need at least not yet. It actually is a really nice lathe we have it at work. Unfortunately it also needs the motor doesn't come with it that bumps up the cost even more. The first link shows you what it looks like the second link talks about it.

The second link brings up an interesting problem? Basically the Chinese can produce a whole variety of Lathes for instance in various qualities. Harbor freight in the US sells things based on price. What happens is their lathes will be really really cheap. Other companies will sell stuff that looks identical but it has specifications much better. And sometimes those companies will have stuff custom painted and made to their specifications and will still look identical almost to the harbor freight but the difference in quality will be quite a bit. At least that's the story that I've heard.

First link shows you the lathe second link talks about it and shows the accessories in the basin all sorts of nifty stuff that must exist somewhere in the universe but I have no idea where.

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/lathe-vector-watchmakers-48-collets-hl11

http://www.lathes.co.uk/vector/

Then the Swiss quality with a quality price. One of the things and be nice to have a few doing bezels is a bezel Chuck I would not buy it here but this is what it looks like.

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/lathe-universal-self-centring-chuck-bergeon-1766-18-hl1766p

 

[jdm]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm obviously not looking in the right place? Here's a vector lathe unfortunately is not cheap.

VEVOR, not VECTOR. The first is possibly the largest Chinese retailer of assorted machinery:  vevor.com.
The latter is a German importer/rebadger of the Chinese watchmaker's lathe: http://www.lathes.co.uk/chinese-watch-lathe/ something  have discussed in other threads.
In fact the subject of this topic is small lathes that are not watchmaker's.

 

 

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Well the point I was making is that you had become biased based on other's say. You are welcome to post links to articles, videos, etc,  supporting this view. I have collected many which are actually about the opposite.
As mentioned my direct, hands-one experience on two different Chinese lathes is in the long thread linked above. In short, every single time the work didn't come out as it should have, it was my fault or limitation, not the machine.

So are you saying the other people that have tested these Chinese lathes are biased. Just look on Youtube. 

[jdm]

29 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Just look on Youtube. 

Please, again, post links to these videos?

Here's a random one by blondidhacks, have you ever heard of her? She has no problem in getting great results from her Chinese lathe. Remember, only fools blames their tools.

 

 

[oldhippy]

Here look at this pile of crap video.