Minuet Wheel pinion

[mcoulton]

Hello

I've come across an issue where I can't properly seat the minute hand and I believe this is because the minuet hand pinion doesn't protrude high enough or I've got the wrong hands. I've installed the date wheel ring to give the dial enough clearance above the calendar and a dial washer. I haven't stripped the movement to oil it yet, so my questions are:

1.) Is it possible the movement hasn't been assembled properly (both the hour and minute pinions move when the crown is pulled out to the hand setting position)?

2.) Do I have incorrect hands for the movement? 

Thanking you in advance for any help that can be provided. 

Michael

[Nucejoe]

Hands rubing or minute arbor binding.

Both problems slows down the runing of the movement & reduce amplitude. 

 

[VWatchie]

Without pictures, that's hard to say. The only thing that comes to mind is this: When replacing the dial make sure the dial doesn't foul the movement holder. If it does, it may look fine, but the dial then ends up too high above the movement making it difficult or even impossible to mount the hands.

[HSL]

6 hours ago, mcoulton said:

Hello

I've come across an issue where I can't properly seat the minute hand and I believe this is because the minuet hand pinion doesn't protrude high enough or I've got the wrong hands. I've installed the date wheel ring to give the dial enough clearance above the calendar and a dial washer. I haven't stripped the movement to oil it yet, so my questions are:

1.) Is it possible the movement hasn't been assembled properly (both the hour and minute pinions move when the crown is pulled out to the hand setting position)?

2.) Do I have incorrect hands for the movement? 

Thanking you in advance for any help that can be provided. 

Michael

Just as VWatchie has noted, without Pictures it is impossible to know. But lets try anyhow

1.) First of all the cannon pinion pivot is your minute hand position, it is mostly driven by the minute Wheel, ontop of the minute Wheel is a small pinion driving the hour Wheel (small gears are called pinions and the larger ones are Wheels), so when you pull the Winding stem out the minute Wheel is engaged by the setting Wheel and both the cannon pinion and hour Wheel is turned by the minute wheel, nothing special with that since one wants to set both hour and minute. It's only the ratio between the Wheels and pinions that set what rate the hands are turned in.
But sometimes one have pushed the minute hand too Deep so you don't have any space between the hour and minute hand or the minute hand is slightly bent. In that case both the hour and minute hand moves simulaniously at the same rate, the hour hand is just friction fitted after all, this is not a good state and is solved by lifting the minute hand up a bit with hand levers (after put somthing on the dial to  protect it from scratching) or taking the second hand and the minute hand off and gently straighten the minute hand.

2.) Impossible to say right now since we dont know any meassurements of the hand hole diameters nor what movement they are to be attached too.

Edited August 14, 2019 by HSL

[oldhippy]

Are you sure the cannon pinion is seated correctly? We need photos for this. 

[anilv]

Also was this watch together when you got it? ie did the parts fit before?

Anilv

[CaptCalvin]

8 hours ago, HSL said:

First of all the cannon pinion pivot is your minute hand position, it is mostly driven by the minute Wheel

Hmmm I haven't worked on too many movements but the only movement that has the minute/canon pinion driven by a minute wheel is the 7750. Everything else I'd seen have them driven by the barrel whether they be the center wheel or a separate pinion like in Rolex.

[mcoulton]

Hello

Please find attached photos that I hope will explain my dilemma better. In the "Side View With Dial" I have the hour hand seated however there hardly seems enough clearance for the minute hand to be seated. I've include some pictures for reference. Also the movement hasn't been taken apart and re-assembled yet. 

 

Thanks again to all those you have responded. 

Michael

[CaptCalvin]

It looks like rather the minute pinion tube not protruding enough, it is the hour wheel that's somehow lifted too high. Also the hour hand is way far down the tube than needed.

[mcoulton]

Thanks CaptCalvin

Would this be a parts issue or an assembly issue? I do have another movement that I might be able to exchange parts and see if it helps, or would I be looking at a strip down and re-assembly? 

[HSL]

12 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Hmmm I haven't worked on too many movements but the only movement that has the minute/canon pinion driven by a minute wheel is the 7750. Everything else I'd seen have them driven by the barrel whether they be the center wheel or a separate pinion like in Rolex.

Well I have worked with a whole bunch with movements were the setting of the hour and minute as I discribe in the text is direct driven by the setting wheel and the minute wheel, below is an example. When the watch is in normal mode the drive gear is run by the drive train and the drive train is powered by the barrel. So since my native language isn't English I make a small guide explaining what I tried to communicate with that sentence how the time is set with the watch in "setting mode" not normal drive mode.
I dont have a watch for service right now but lets pop a fresh one.  

In the bag we find "the kit" with the dial ring, hour wheel and an extra winding stem.

We look at the movement put in a movement holder. On the 2824-2 we can see ..
1. The cannon pinion with integrated drive gear.
2. The minute wheel.

In normal conditions the drive gear is moving the cannon pinion and the minute wheel, but in "setting mode" the setting wheel is 
drivig the minute wheel and the cannon pinion.

 

Here we can see the..

1. Hour wheel
2. The small pinion on the minute wheel driving the hour wheel.
1. 

The whole setup when the 2824-2 is in the setting mode.
1. The hour wheel conected to the..
2. Minute wheel conected to the..
3. Setting wheel.

And to me the lenght of the "minute pinion" loooks OK for this type of movement. This is how much a H1 cannon pinion sticks out from the hour wheel pretty much what one can see on mcoultons last picture.
So my theory still is the hands were wrongly attached or of the wrong type of hands, but who knows.

[CaptCalvin]

Yeah what I thought you were saying is that they were powered by the minute wheel and not that they were aet through the minute wheel. The 7750 would not have been set through the minute wheel as the setting wheel engages the canon pinion directly. 

Back on topic: yeah it is of my opinion as well that it isnt a problem with the movement. Rather something went wrong with the attachment of the dial and allowed the hour wheel to lift up.

[Klassiker]

looking at the photo with the (lovely blue) dial and hour hand im place, the hand is touching the dial, so as CaptCalvin said, far too low. The cannon pinion isn't visible. Looking then at the photo below that, with the dial removed, the cannon pinion is clearly visible. So, I think you had the hand fitted upside down. The collar should be on the underside.

[oldhippy]

I would say you have the wrong hour wheel. The pipe is to long. You need to check and see if there are are different heights. The hour hand has been put on far to low, as it is it will mark the dial, always have a gap between hour hand and dial. 

[VWatchie]

When the dial and the hour hand aren’t mounted, the distance between the end of the hour wheel tube and the end of the cannon pinion, as indicated by the yellow arrow, looks perfectly fine to me.

However, when the dial and hour hand are mounted, it looks like the hour hand has been pressed down to such an extreme extent that it lifts the hour wheel away from the movement. In this state, I’d be surprised if you can set the time of the hour hand when you rotate the crown, but if you can’t, as I suspect, I think my analysis is correct.

You only have to press down the hour hand until it is flush with the end of the hour wheel tube.

Anyway, the best way to solve this little mystery is to understand how the motion works operate in detail and to this end you'll find @HSL's posts the most useful.

Well, JM2C!

Edited August 15, 2019 by VWatchie
Just wanted to make a small addition

[HSL]

I guess you bought this set as a kit with the parts indicating they are fitting together so before buying even more new parts try some moves mentioned below.
When one compare your movement Pictures with mine the parts looks ok. The distances between the cannon pinion and hour Wheel is normal.
The symtoms seen in your Pictures strongly indicate you just might have made some common misstakes, investigating and correcting these might get you in the right track again.

1. You forgott the dial washer on the hour Wheel which probably makes it fall out of Place; lift slightly upwards, Always use a dial washer.
2. The dial isn't pushed far enough down so it hovers a bit above the dial support.
3. The dial support is slightly bent; the nick in the bend is resulting in wrong distance between the dial and movement. the dial support has to be totaly level to the movement.
4. The dial is thicker than recommended for a H1 setup.

The obvious thing is the distance of the hour hand as stated before so that too has to be fixed.
I strongly recommend to use hand setting Tools since these have holes fitting the different tubes. To set a hour hand the hole most be big enough to pass through the minute tube but not the hour tube, and so on.
It's probably hard for a novice to imagine how the distances should be but looking at a Picture mostly helps, so when using these Tools you will get the following result.

As you see if the hand is straight you automaticaly get the correct distance to the dial.

You just repeat the process with the minute hand. (sorry for the shitty Picture, but one still can see the result).

A straight minute hand will fitt snuggely to the hour hand. A slightly bent will as i earlier said attache to the hour hand when setting the time.

I have earlier made an Quick and Dirty tutorial but without any theories which you can take a look in maybe there are some answers to your questions in that one, it is by far any ultimate solution but might help you on your way.

 

[mcoulton]

Thank you to all those individuals who posted a reply. I believe the issue lies with the hour hand being pressed down to far on the pinion thus raising the hour wheel and thereby shortening the minuet pinion. Secondly, I wasn't able to secure the minute hand possibly because the metal will not form a quality friction fit on the pinion. I've reverted to using the minute hand that came from the movement (for now). Please find pictures attached, and thanks again for all your efforts and pictures. 

 

Michael

[Watchtime]

Interesting problem Michael, good to see you found the solution with this "Rolex" build....