Epilame / Fixodrop

[Kalanag]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

…Well, that looks very promising. Thanks for sharing! I bet it's just 20 % of the cost of Moebius Epilame? Where do you buy it?

I bought it here:

https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/epages/62662707.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F62662707%2FProducts%2F4439.1420

[VWatchie]

Does it say anywhere how many ml the bottle contains? All I found was 45g. So, 45 ml? I'm trying to compare prices. Also found this Epilame called Episurf Neo while searching.

[Kalanag]

34 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Does it say anywhere how many ml the bottle contains? All I found was 45g. So, 45 ml? I'm trying to compare prices. Also found this Epilame called Episurf Neo while searching.

The data sheet says 1,5g/cm3. So 45g is 30ml what I can confirm after having measured the dimensions of my bottle.

http://www.epilamisierung.com/images/stories/te1420ea.pdf

http://www.epilamisierung.com/en/

Edited June 21, 2022 by Kalanag

[MikeRaleighNC]

On 7/18/2018 at 5:46 AM, StuartBaker104 said:

Does anyone know of a uk source for the Zenith epi kote? Seems by far the cheapest of all the options, but I can't find a way of getting it here for a reasonable cost 

Bumping this back up. Any recommendations?

[Birbdad]

Skimmed this thread and didn't see this posted so apologies if i missed it.

Seems like a far better alternative to dropping 100 bucks on a small glass bottle with a piece of plastic mesh in it.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5385691

[Klassiker]

What about adapting a contact-lens holder? They are really cheap  Depending on the plastics'  compatibility with the solvent, it might be worth a try.

[VWatchie]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:53 PM, Paul80 said:

For ease of application I just drop the pallet onto the mesh and turn the bottle upside down for 30 seconds as per the instructions.

Then once it's dried I just use an EVEFLEX Rubber abrasive stick to clean it off the pivots.

On 6/16/2022 at 11:34 AM, VWatchie said:

Sounds like a very practical approach. Thanks for sharing! Just to make sure, have you ensured that all FixoDrop is really removed from the pivots?

@Paul80, I've now tried this (as I was evaluating the use of EVEFLEX), and I can tell you for sure that the Epilame/Fixodrop is completely removed from the pivots. So, I will definitely adopt your method which is so much easier than trying to just treat the pallet stones.

[Knebo]

Hello everyone, 

I just bit the bullet and ordered 10ml of Fixodrop (in the bottle with integrated net). 

I've read this whole thread four times now to make sure I don't miss anything when I use my liquid gold.

I feel thattthere are two points that aren't sufficiently discussed here (with the exception of individual posts) :

1. I (believe to) understand that we should apply epilame/Fixodrop to the pallet stones and escape wheel, then let the movement run for a little while in order to remove the epilame from the actual contact area (and leaving it on the adjacent areas to avoid spreading of the oil). QUESTION: before final oiling, should we not re-clean the pallet fork and escape wheel to remove the scraped-off residual of the epilame/Fixodrop? Of course, in a way that doesn't remove the remaining Fixodrop.. If you do clean it again, how?? A full (ultrasonic) cleaning cycle (so much work!!) ? Or OneDip (how does that react with the epilame?) ?? Or Rodico (or would it remove the epilame) ? 

2. Most discussion is about the pallet stones and escape wheel (and reversing wheels). What about the gear train and jewels (or even other parts) ? QUESTION: do you? (and if so, again, don't you have to dry-run and re-clean before final oiling?) 

Cheers! 

 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

QUESTION: before final oiling, should we not re-clean the pallet fork and escape wheel to remove the scraped-off residual of the epilame/Fixodrop? Of course, in a way that doesn't remove the remaining Fixodrop.. If you do clean it again, how?? A full (ultrasonic) cleaning cycle (so much work!!) ? Or OneDip (how does that react with the epilame?) ?? Or Rodico (or would it remove the epilame) ? 

as far as I know in none of the literature I've ever read is there a concern over cleaning off the residue. Basically the coating is super thin and you shouldn't see anything anyway.  or if he did see anything egregious error blow it off.

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

2. Most discussion is about the pallet stones and escape wheel (and reversing wheels). What about the gear train and jewels (or even other parts) ? QUESTION: do you? (and if so, again, don't you have to dry-run and re-clean before final oiling?) 

Cheers! 

typically Rolex reverser get epilam I don't know if any of the other reversers do. As far as the rest the watch goes it depends upon whose literature you looking at. It also depends upon how much money you have as to whether you really want a coat everything. for instance I know that Swatch group is doing their epilam with their cleaning machines now is the final jar is epilam. See looking at maybe 1/2 L of epilam for your machine if you are doing that. If you figure out what that would cost you'll start understand why only the pallet fork and escape wheel are typically done. But it depends upon whose literature you looking at.

 

[VWatchie]

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

1. I (believe to) understand that we should apply epilame/Fixodrop to the pallet stones and escape wheel, then let the movement run for a little while in order to remove the epilame from the actual contact area (and leaving it on the adjacent areas to avoid spreading of the oil).

I'm certainly not an expert, and I have limited experience, but this is what I plan to do. Treat the entire escape wheel and the entire pallet fork with epilame. I will then remove the epilame from all pivots using Eveflex. Finally, I'll oil the pallet stones sufficiently and be done with it.

I don't think there's much removal of epilame from the contact areas using this approach. And after all, don't we want the epilame to be intact to do its job? Yes, I understand the theory that the epilame should form barriers to prevent the oil from spreading from the non-treated sections on the impulse surfaces, but in my humble opinion that is both overthinking it and overdoing it. As always I'm happy to be proven wrong as it will make me a better repairer.

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

should we not re-clean the pallet fork and escape wheel to remove the scraped-off residual of the epilame/Fixodrop?

Any attempt to do so would risk, whatever method used, compromising the entire exercise. I would not do that.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure the epilame will not improve the performance, but hopefully, prolong the service interval.

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

2. Most discussion is about the pallet stones and escape wheel (and reversing wheels). What about the gear train and jewels (or even other parts) ? QUESTION: do you? (and if so, again, don't you have to dry-run and re-clean before final oiling?) 

I've tried this too (no dry-run and re-clean), but it's in my opinion way too much work with likely too few advantages.

As enthusiasts, I wonder if we really need an epilame at all!? Applying the right amount of lubrication in the right places should prevent it from spreading to the wrong places. If you are a professional, having a cleaning machine with epilame in the final jar, you can probably afford to be a little less conscientious while doing your oiling (except for perhaps the escape wheel and pallets) and thereby save time.

[rehajm]

I am no expert either but I’d concur with the idea of overthinking it. Spend more time making the watch run better instead of fussing too much with these products. Go ahead and dip the escapment but get it off the pivots with pithwood- I’ve seen a few movements covered in white powder and have been told it is dried up Epilame type product. Abrasives in the movements sounds way worse than a little escapement oil out of bounds….

If you want to have a fiddly Epilame trick: pull some Epilame into a small sterile syringe, then push just part of a tiny drop out of the needle so you coat only the pallet stones instead if the whole anchor. Now you don’t have to spend time with the pithwood getting the epilame off the pivots…

Edited April 2, 2023 by rehajm

[VWatchie]

30 minutes ago, rehajm said:

If you want to have a fiddly Epilame trick: pull some Epilame into a small sterile syringe, then push just part of a tiny drop out of the needle so you coat only the pallet stones instead if the whole anchor.

It sounds like a good idea on paper but unfortunately, my experience is that it doesn't work very well in practice. The epilame tends to evaporate so quickly from the tip of the syringe that you are tempted to try to squirt out a little more with the result that you drown the pivots or even the entire fork.

[rehajm]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

It sounds like a good idea on paper but unfortunately, my experience is that it doesn't work very well in practice. The epilame tends to evaporate so quickly from the tip of the syringe that you are tempted to try to squirt out a little more with the result that you drown the pivots or even the entire fork.

Oh I'm sorry it's ineffective for you. What size syringe are you using? I use a 2ml, pull only a couple tenths into the syringe then set the syringe on a sheet of watch paper. Under magnification I can usually get a drop to slowly form at the tip via capillary action that gives me enough time to hold the pallet jewels in place to grab some of the liquid. 

It looks just like this...

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, rehajm said:

Oh I'm sorry it's ineffective for you.

Thank you for your concern, but you don't have to be sorry because I have a method (mentioned in my previous post) that I feel is more efficient and precise! 

11 hours ago, rehajm said:

What size syringe are you using?

I've tried with a 1ml syringe and it could be that it is a bit small, but I don't think it has any decisive significance. Any bigger and I believe the risk of flooding the pallets increases even more. Or, it could be the reason the epilame evaporates too quickly for me!?

I've seen the video previously and I think it somewhat strengthens my argument. When the first pallet stone is treated the epilame spreads all the way to the pallet fork staff, and then the video is cut, so it could be that it actually also spread to the pivots (although it doesn't look like it). When the other pallet stone is treated it looks perfect, but compared to my own experience, that is only with a bit of luck. It's very difficult to get the right size drop of epilame.

Anyway, I've come to learn that what works for one repairer may not work for another. Probably because there are too many parameters at play (some far from obvious). Good thing there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Edited April 3, 2023 by VWatchie

[rehajm]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Thank you for your concern, but you don't have to be sorry because I have a method (mentioned in my previous post) that I feel is more efficient and precise! 

I've tried with a 1ml syringe and it could be that it is a bit small, but I don't think it has any decisive significance. Any bigger and I believe the risk of flooding the pallets increases even more. Or, it could be the reason the epilame evaporates too quickly for me!?

I've seen the video previously and I think it somewhat strengthens my argument. When the first pallet stone is treated the epilame spreads all the way to the pallet fork staff, and then the video is cut, so it could be that it actually also spread to the pivots (although it doesn't look like it). When the other pallet stone is treated it looks perfect, but compared to my own experience, that is only with a bit of luck. It's very difficult to get the right size drop of epilame.

Anyway, I've come to learn that what works for one repairer may not work for another. Probably because there are too many parameters at play (some far from obvious). Good thing there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Of course there are so many methods for so many procedures and I did not intend to question yours, simply pointing out I find this to be quick, efficient and less prone to error than a dunk and clean…

[GuyMontag]

I've had good success using a micro artist brush. It's quick and easy to get the epilame where you want it without excess spreading.

 

 

 

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, rehajm said:

Of course there are so many methods for so many procedures and I did not intend to question yours, simply pointing out I find this to be quick, efficient and less prone to error than a dunk and clean…

No problem @rehajm, I didn't take it like "questioning"! 

Came to think of it today as I was just about to dunk a pallet fork into my epilame bottle. I didn't want to treat the pallet fork slot and horns with epilame as I don't oil the fork slot and/or the impulse jewel. So, I resorted to my syringe to give it another try, and this time around it worked really well. So, thanks for reminding me (and others) of this method  And keep your ideas and advice coming.

[horaeus]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:58 PM, hagantic42 said:

Read the following and attempt at your own peril but for the love of god use a organic vapor respirator.

Add 1g Steric acid/ 100g pure ethanol to a seal-able glass jar. Warm to 40C in hot water. Once solution is warm, place parts to be coated in parts basket suspended above the solution and re-seal. Place jar into a sonicator filled with hot water. (the prewarming was to prevent high pressure in sealed jar). Placing jar the in a sonicator basket improves vapor production. Let sit for 5-10 minutes. Remove jar from sonicator and remove parts basket in a well ventilated area. Blow dry. Placing a drop of oil on a non-critical area should show if its working. Let sit for 10-15 minutes and see if there is any spreading.

Haganatic42,

I sincerely hope you're still on that platform. I'm glad you're one of the few that shine a light on the risks of epilame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but very few good ever came from the use of Fluor compounds in history and the fluor polymers used for anti sticking coating are getting in the news regularly for environment pollution and sickness of animals and people living near plants, many of us heard of the infamous PFAS by now. Simply the fact that they don't dissappear and keep adding in organisms puts them - at least for me - on the same pedestal as radioactive materials. Simply put, I don't wanna use them, I don't wanna touch them and in fact I welcome the attempt of the EU to ban all fluor polymersby law, but it will be hard against all industrial lobbying. 

So I am very interested in doing it the old way with stearic acid in ethanol as you described.

You as a chemist can maybe answer the question: when I service a watch that has been treated with a fluor epilame, does it enter my organism by simply touching the part or do I inhale some of it by scrubbing parts or would you say it is unlikely to enter into my body simply by handling it or the cleaning helpers prior to the cleaning machine? I heard when a piece of teflon pan brakes apart and you eat it by accident it will not get into your circulation, because it is inert. How inert ist the polymer film on watch parts? Is there a difference?

Can you maybe send me your email privately, so I can ask again if I'm having trouble with the stearic recipe? 

And any of you else listening: have you got experience with the application of the stearic solution. Would you do it the same as with fluor epilame? How bad was it when you used no epilame at all, let's say after 5 years? 

Thanks

Peer

[canthus]

I purchased a 50ml bottle of Horotec Episurf-Neo some time ago now.  I'm only a hobbyist so all the expensive application bottles were a no-go.  I use a fine plastic tube (actually a cleaned out ballpoint pen ink tube!!). I dip this in the bottle just a couple or so mm and put finger over open end (like we learnt at  school with a pipette!). I then transfer this very small amount into a used silver oxide battery case which is set into a piece of rodico.Then, under the microscope I can then accurately dip just the pallet jewels and escape wheel teeth (I also do cap jewels) into the fluid for a few seconds. I dry with a hair dryer set at low temp and speed. Any remaining fluid I tip back into the bottle.  As to whether this is effective or not I don't know but I have noticed that the oil applied does seem to stay put.  Also no need to clean pivots etc.

Edited July 11, 2023 by canthus

[Malocchio]

I dip a large oiler in fixodrop and quickly transfer the drop to a pallet jewel. Fixodrop evaporates fast so gotta be super quick. I have put fixodrop in a small "acid bottle" that I also use for dipping the escape wheel. I drop it in, pick up with tweezers and dry with hair dryer. Cap jewels I also treat with the oiler method. Really simple and I cannot see why any other way would be better for me. 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, horaeus said:

Can you maybe send me your email privately, so I can ask again if I'm having trouble with the stearic recipe?

what if any of the rest of us would like to do this this is a public discussion group will you share the secrets in your private email with us?

2 hours ago, Malocchio said:

Fixodrop evaporates fast

if you look at the specifications the newer ones are supposed to not as evaporate as fast.

Omega uses it as the final rinse in the cleaning process because the cleaning processes aggressively strip off the old stuff. Because it's now supposedly more environmentally friendly I think that's what they said don't quote me on that one but because it doesn't evaporate practically instantaneously they can keep it in the final rinse jar. Whereas the original epilam was so incredibly volatile that it would evaporate out of a sealed jar so eventually all you'd have is a brown residue in the bottom or some sort residue with no fluid left at all.

 

7 hours ago, horaeus said:

How bad was it when you used no epilame at all, let's say after 5 years? 

some of us have a problem with this? The problem is how many people in this group document what exactly they're doing and keep track of it over several years? In my case typically all the watches I've serviced are in the hands of other people so I for the most part have no idea what happened.

Then I did have one watch which I sold that I hadn't serviced for more than five years so I could observe the effect of lubrication choices. I also did not use any epilam at all and on that particular watch it didn't seem to be an issue. On the other hand I didn't wear the watch every single day. One of the ways you get around epilam is better choices of lubrication that don't run away.

[Knebo]

Hello everyone,

for what it's worth, here is my approach:

1. Escape wheel submerged in Epilame, then dried quickly with a hairdryer. Then the final tip of the pivots are cleaned by poking into pithwood. The logic being that the Epilame is removed at the intended contact point (to avoid any residue that may mix with the oil), but remains in the areas where oil is not supposed to spread to (further down the pivot towards the wheel). The escape wheel teeth also benefit from having Epilame to keep the 9415 in place. 

2. I use a syringe to treat only the pallet stones. I suspend the pallet fork with some Rodico so that the stones hang downwards. I notably use a rather thick needle where a drop WON'T form, but rather where the Epilame liquid stays in the needle tip, which I then dip into the pallet stones. It requires some practice to get the right amount of Epilame into the needle tip, but it works for me now. This way, no drop will "jump" onto the pallet fork and potentially go all the way to the pivots. 

3. I let the movement run for a few minutes without lubricating the pallet stones... to scrape off the Epilame in the intended contact "channel". Then I remove the balance again and lubricate the exit pallet stone with 3-4 successive drops. See the "channel" that forms on the pallet stone in the picture -- not so easy to see, but it's visible.

 

 

 

I am conflicted about the use of Epliame in balance jewel settings. My impression is that the two jewels sufficiently suspend the oil (even 9010). Apparently Rolex recommends NOT to use Epliame there (heard from a former Rolex service center watchmaker), as it could cause additional wear.

Apart from that, I follow specific instructions where I can find them. E.g. the infamous Rolex reverser wheels or sometimes (parts of) the seconds wheel. Exception: I'm currently servicing an Eta 2824 and will probably ignore the service sheet that recommends treating the whole keyless works with Epilame and then using HP1300... I'll skip the Epilame and use 9504 grease.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

9 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Hello everyone,

for what it's worth, here is my approach:

Sounds great! And yes, I would use grease for the keyless as well although treating the parts with epilame would make the grease less likely to spread in the long run. Not critical but won’t hurt.

My current strategy is to epilame treat all parts getting in contact with oil or grease.

[mikepilk]

19 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Sounds great! And yes, I would use grease for the keyless as well although treating the parts with epilame would make the grease less likely to spread in the long run. Not critical but won’t hurt.

My current strategy is to epilame treat all parts getting in contact with oil or grease.

Have you ever seen grease spread?  I use Molykote DX on the keyless, cannon pinion, etc and cannot imagine it spreading. Similarly, HP1300 should not be a problem, as long as you don't splash too much about.  9010 does like to travel though.

I've recently re-serviced a couple of my watches I first serviced about 5 years ago. I was a bit too liberal with the oil and grease back then, but it hasn't spread everywhere.

I only epilame on balance cap stones, escape wheel and pallet stones (and auto wheels if they need it).  

If you use it all over, the oil might bead-up and travel even further - think of using RainX on your car windows.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Sounds great! And yes, I would use grease for the keyless as well although treating the parts with epilame would make the grease less likely to spread in the long run. Not critical but won’t hurt.

My current strategy is to epilame treat all parts getting in contact with oil or grease.

what happens if lubrication is placed directly on top of epilame ? Making a small groove so the lubrication doesn't spread across the component but what if when lubing a little overspills and sits on the epilame .