Epilame / Fixodrop

[Marc]

7 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Which seems entirely opposite to this reasoning

Not necessarily. If you run the movement dry for a short period then the (hopefully) the contact between the end of the pivot and the cap jewel will wear away the epilame where the oil is needed. I guess you would have to run the movement in all positions to account for clearences and to ensure that the epilame is removed where it needs to be.

[ifibrin]

5 minutes ago, Marc said:

Not necessarily. If you run the movement dry for a short period then the (hopefully) the contact between the end of the pivot and the cap jewel will wear away the epilame where the oil is needed. I guess you would have to run the movement in all positions to account for clearences and to ensure that the epilame is removed where it needs to be.

I mean that the epilame coating is supposed to be oleophobic, as seen by the oil droplet being a tight ball and not spreading (think of a drop of water on top of a Teflon pan), yet this is good because the oil droplet is stuck there and won’t spread.

Apparently, the epilame surface is oleophobic enough to prevent the oil from spreading, but adhesive enough to keep the oil in place?

Ive not heard of running the cap jewel dry to remove the epilame coating on a point of cap jewels, only for pallet fork pivots.

Edited April 5, 2022 by ifibrin

[ifibrin]

[ifibrin]

I think if the entire surface is epilame treated, oil deposited will stay fixed in position. If there’s a surface that is partially epilame treated, oil will migrate from the epilame coated surface to the untreated surface.

This means that the epilame is oil repelling, but if the entire surface is oil repelling, the oil will not migrate. 

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, Marc said:

The idea is that it is an oil repellent.

And I think of it as an oil attractor! In my experience it works a bit like a magnet. That is, even tough the surrounding areas are magnetic (epilame treated) the ferrous object (oil) doesn't readily move from one spot to another. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense though, but it would also mean that you would have to be using the entire watch dry to wear off the epilame before you oil it. Except for cap jewels and pallet jewels I epilame treat most parts of the winding and setting mechanism and I believe it would take too long to reach a state were the epilame has worn off sufficiently. That is, the dry jewel holes would start to act abrasive on the pivots and on other friction points where there's metal to metal. Anyway, it's a complex topic worth reasoning around.

Edited April 5, 2022 by VWatchie

[Paul80]

Don't know if anyone else noticed this but Moebious are now doing a slightly cheaper route into using their Fixodrop, Moebius 8981 Fixodrop (Ready to Use), 10ml

Supplied in a small application bottle with mesh filter built into the bottle, only 10ml but also under £30, should do a few pallets and end stones and a cheaper route into seeing if an Epelame works as claimed, at that price even I may get some.

I wonder what the evaporation time is for 10ml in a none pinched neck bottle.

[Kalanag]

8 hours ago, Paul80 said:

…I wonder what the evaporation time is for 10ml in a none pinched neck bottle.

That‘s exactly what my concern was!

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Paul80 said:

I wonder what the evaporation time is for 10ml in a none pinched neck bottle.

you have to go and look at their website supposedly a the chemistry is changed with the solvent is an's as volatile as it used to be and then the indication was of course it wouldn't of app rate is much.

Because the old stuff eventually would just evaporate out of a tightly sealed bottle. Your eventually left with the empty bottle with a small amount of residue in the bottom of the bottle.

[Tony13]

I have come across a different brand of epilam.

Does anybody have experience with it? I want to buy it to service a few eta automatic movements.

This are the specs : 

 

Product information 

LRCB Eco 50, epilam, ready-to-use solution, 20 ml

Color: Clear

Contents: 20 ml

Density: 1,43 g/ml (20 °C)

Operating temperature range: < 150 °C

Product area: Adhesives, lubricants & chemicals

Shape: Epilame

Viscosity: Low

Weight (kg): 0.043

 

 

[nickelsilver]

I haven't used LRCB stuff but they are reputed to be equal to Moebius. I'm sure they think they are superior! The big problem for a horological oil maker is the fact that all manufacturers use and recommend Moebius, or perhaps some in house lubricant, so it's an even smaller market for a small maker like LRCB. I am curious to try their epilame, but I have two 100ml bottles of Fixodop on the shelf so it will be a while.

[Tony13]

I actually wanted to buy fixodrop v105 but Beco does not sell it anymore that is why I stumbled upon this one.

Do you think it will do the same? I need it for reverser wheels.

I never buy anything from Moebius just do not like there prices

[nickelsilver]

5 minutes ago, Tony13 said:

I actually wanted to buy fixodrop v105 but Beco does not sell it anymore that is why I stumbled upon this one.

Do you think it will do the same? I need it for reverser wheels.

I never buy anything from Moebius just do not like there prices

I'm sure it will work at least as well as Fixodrop.

[Kalanag]

I‘ve been using Dr.Tillwich Antispread E2 as a priceworthy alternative to Fixodrop

https://www.boley.de/en/shop/9456.epilame-antispread/1838278988.epilame

[Paul80]

As Boley dont supply to us mere mortals, anyone know where I can order the Dr Tillwich Antispread in the UK or an EU supplier that ships to the UK.

Thanks

[gbyleveldt]

Any reason you not using the smaller fixodrop bottle?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/8981-fixodrop-esbs10-ready-to-use?code=M61650

I've been using it for a few weeks now and the fact that it is ready to use (having a sieve integrated into the bottle) helps keep the eventual price down. Obviously you want to make sure that whatever you put in there is perfectly clean so as not to spoil the contents. But even 10ml will last a long time for hobbyist use and for 25GBP it's not as painful as buying a 100ml bottle

Edited June 15, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Kalanag]

2 hours ago, Paul80 said:

As Boley dont supply to us mere mortals, anyone know where I can order the Dr Tillwich Antispread in the UK or an EU supplier that ships to the UK.

I bought it here (ships to UK):

https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/epages/62662707.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F62662707%2FProducts%2F4439.1420

56 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Any reason you not using the smaller fixodrop bottle?

It seems to evaporate quite fast. So with 100ml I feel being on the save side.

I didn‘t know about the integrated sieve of the 10ml Fixodrop. Good info!

A picture from the Cousins website:

Edited June 15, 2022 by Kalanag

[gbyleveldt]

37 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

It seems to evaporate quite fast. So with 100ml I feel being on the save side. I didn‘t know about the integrated sieve. Good info!
 

Yes it does evaporate fast so you need to obviously keep that in mind and not leave the bottle open unnecessarily. That being said the smaller size and integrated sieve does make it a lot cheaper to start using it in your workflow, as opposed to having to spend 4 times that on 100ml and another 4 times that on a suitable decanting bottle. If I was using it every day that would be another story of course. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Kalanag]

21 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

…integrated sieve does make it a lot cheaper to start using it in your workflow, as opposed to having to spend 4 times that on 100ml and another 4 times that on a suitable decanting bottle…

I don‘t feel the need for a decanting bottle. I just dip the parts in for a view seconds with my tweezers.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Kalanag

[gbyleveldt]

59 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

I don‘t feel the need for a decanting bottle. I just dip the parts in for a view seconds with my tweezers.

Heh I agree you don't need it. I just mention it as there was just a long thread on one of the FB groups about it the other day where certain people INSISTED on using a decanting bottle because it's "accepted practice".

[Paul80]

I actually just started using Fixodrop, thanks to the new 10ml bottle, I made a mark on the bottle label so I can see how quick it's disappearing.

On a side note I was a little sceptical about this product and was more than happy not to pay the obscene amount Moebious ask for their bigger bottles. Only used it a few times but can already see that it does actually seem to work, now when I add the drop of oil to the pallet stone it stays on the stone, before no matter how careful I was adding it as soon as it hit the stone it would start running down the side of the stone.

At least it only cost £30 to be converted, I would never have tried it if I had to buy a big bottle and the even more obscenely priced applicator bottle.  Now Alli need is to just buy the bigger bottle and refill the small one when it eventually empties, through use or evaporation;)

[gbyleveldt]

32 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

At least it only cost £30 to be converted, I would never have tried it if I had to buy a big bottle and the even more obscenely priced applicator bottle.  Now Alli need is to just buy the bigger bottle and refill the small one when it eventually empties, through use or evaporation;)

Haha that was exactly my thinking as well. For 25GBP I was curious, for 180GBP all in not so much. And yes I'm also pretty impressed with how well it works. When you oil the exit stone and it rubs against the escape tooth, you could see the grease spreading unevenly before. Now the grease sticks to only the face of the tooth, not running up the length anymore.

Now that you bring it up, it does make sense to keep the cheap 10ml bottle and just buy the 100ml to refill the smaller one. Good thinking!

[GuyMontag]

4 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Only used it a few times but can already see that it does actually seem to work, now when I add the drop of oil to the pallet stone it stays on the stone, before no matter how careful I was adding it as soon as it hit the stone it would start running down the side of the stone.

 

Are you applying the epilame to the entire pallet or just the stones?

[Paul80]

For ease of application I just drop the pallet onto the mesh and turn the bottle upside down for 30 seconds as per the instructions.

Then once it's dried I just use an EVEFLEX Rubber abrasive stick to clean it off the pivots.

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, Paul80 said:

For ease of application I just drop the pallet onto the mesh and turn the bottle upside down for 30 seconds as per the instructions.

Then once it's dried I just use an EVEFLEX Rubber abrasive stick to clean it off the pivots.

Sounds like a very practical approach. Thanks for sharing! Just to make sure, have you ensured that all FixoDrop is really removed from the pivots? The reason I'm asking is that I read somewhere that FixoDrop can survive several service cycles. Or perhaps that was before modern cleaning liquids!?

[Paul80]

To be honest nope, not sure how I could check that it's been removed or not as the coating seems invisible, to my eyes at least, so it might be all gone or it's still there and I can't see it.

Any thoughts on how I can check it is actually removed by my method.