861 Elgin balance staff

[dwhite]

I have a 16s grade 291 Elgin pocket watch with a broken balance staff (bottom pivot).  The Elgin book says it takes a 861 balance staff.  I have an 861NS which stands for new style I believe.  My question is, will it work?  I've searched the web and can't find anything about the 861NS.  Does anyone know?  Thanks in advance, Dan.

[rogart63]

Take a look at balancestaff.com . They have a balancestaff for elgin 861NS aswell as the 861.  See if the have the same dimensions? 

 

[dwhite]

Not sure if I have an 871.  What am I looking for?  Overall length?  That might be hard with the one in the balance since it has a broken pivot.  Not sure I could get the diameter of the part that goes through the balance since it is distorted by riveting.  Thanks!  I don't know why there are so many variations of the 871.  I have seen another that is marked 871-0 which is supposed to be shorter.  You would think that any differences would lead to a new part number.

[rogart63]

3 hours ago, dwhite said:

Not sure if I have an 871.  What am I looking for?  Overall length?  That might be hard with the one in the balance since it has a broken pivot.  Not sure I could get the diameter of the part that goes through the balance since it is distorted by riveting.  Thanks!  I don't know why there are so many variations of the 871.  I have seen another that is marked 871-0 which is supposed to be shorter.  You would think that any differences would lead to a new part number.

871? Not 861? 

Does this help? http://www.ofrei.com/page318.html

A little down this side ofrei has the dimensions. 

As it look balance staff doesn't have a staff with pivot 11 for 861. And it's only 517 long. That you could maybe see by estimating it having a pivot . 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Elgin_291

Edited January 1, 2018 by rogart63

[MrRoundel]

My information shows that there are two 861 staffs. One is marked "NS" in the notes (New Style?). It is 5.32mm long. That's quite a bit longer than the other, which is 5.17mm long.  My factory Elgin parts book shows the 861, with no new model notes, for the grade 291. I'd go with the shorter 861 staff.

[JohnR725]

So as you've discovered 861 Comes in two styles. It appears to be the length is different and a slight difference in the hub thickness. Then each of the two staffs come in four different pivots sizes. Then staff dimensions are interesting in that it always seems to be a little variation. So for the New style staff I have 5.33 or 5.32 with the hub thickness of .53. Then old-style 5.20 or 5.18 with the hub thickness of .55. Then as is typical in American pocket watches pivots size variation in this case 0.10,  0.11,  0.12 and 0.13.

[MrRoundel]

My list shows that the longer 861 goes in what it refers to as a 37/16 size. Then, after consulting with my Elgin book, I see that there was a 37 size listed as a grade 471, which appears to be an 8-day movement. It was of the type used in automotive and travel clocks in the earlier days. That would explain why the one staff is so much longer than the other. Good luck.  Elgin 37s 8-Day

Oh, and a search of the 471 in my Elgin parts book does indeed show an 861 staff, with no note for a difference between the two!

Edited January 1, 2018 by MrRoundel

[JohnR725]

The watch companies are interesting with their numbers for instance Elgin 857 staff comes in five different variations all of which of course have sub variations of different pivots size. Then even the 861 also has a another variation labeled 861C with the only difference apparently it has an oil groove?

[dwhite]

Rogart63:  That link to ofrei really helped.  It shows the 861with a pivot size of 11.  I don't even know what a pivot size is.  I'm assuming it's referring to the diameter of the pivot part of the staff that goes into the jewel.  Is this right?  Are the sizes arbitrary or do they reference some physical measurement?  I do have one pivot left on the broken staff that I could measure if I knew how to translate it into a pivot size.  And how do you measure the jewel to know what size pivot is required?  Can you use a smaller size, say a 10, for a watch that calls for an 11?  This is turning out to be much harder than I thought, mostly because I'm a rank beginner.  Thanks for all your help!

[dwhite]

Rogart63:  Yes I meant 861.  I also misidentified the grade, it is a 313.  The 291 is the watch I started wrecking yesterday.  I wrecked the 291 about 10 days ago and it's sitting until I get a proper staff.  Oddly enough both grades use the same staff.

[dwhite]

MrRoundel:  I actually have a staff for a 37/16.  I didn't know what it was until you provided the link.  It's in an assortment of staffs and jewels I bought a long time ago.  The 861 bottle is empty though.

[dwhite]

JohnR725:  All these variation are giving me a headache.  I have no clue on how to proceed except I'm tempted to take the watch to the back 40 with an amount of high explosives and solve the problem that way.

[dwhite]

4 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

My information shows that there are two 861 staffs. One is marked "NS" in the notes (New Style?). It is 5.32mm long. That's quite a bit longer than the other, which is 5.17mm long.  My factory Elgin parts book shows the 861, with no new model notes, for the grade 291. I'd go with the shorter 861 staff.

Thanks to all the help from all of you I agree that the 5.17 length is the right one.  I have no clue as to the pivot size.  I have to say that I have learned a whole lot from this post.

[MrRoundel]

The pivot can be measured with a micrometer,  preferably in millimeters, or a digital caliper. It can be tricky holding onto the staff, at least when it's out of the balance,  while measuring, but it's the only way unless you have a set of pivot gauges. These are essentially a bunch of different sized hole jewels that you place the staff into to see where it fits. One must bear in mind that if the best fit, evidenced by a slight tilt, is a size 12, the pivot is probably an 11. Plus there can be wear on the pivot to throw a wrench in the works.
 

You can also use the hole jewel to place on top of the staff pivot and see if it pops through without dropping all the way to the top of the cone. Just a slight bit of the pivot should poke through the hole jewel. Sometimes it hit or miss, and you do the best you can, try it out, and if it doesn't work, order another size. It's the nature of this beast. Good luck.

[JohnR725]

One of the things important when replacing parts like the balance staff is to measure the original and all the measurements of the new to verify that they are correct. Even though American pocket watches were mass-produced mass assembled they were still hand fit which brings up lots of variations of size. Then pivots sizes usually the bigger sizes in a seven jewel watch smaller would be in a much higher like 21 or23 jewels but there is no guarantee of that. Same thing happens when changing mainsprings originally there a whole bunch of different thicknesses for a particular watch now were lucky to get one. Then on balance staffs today Especially with bestfit staff's there almost always oversize. That way if you have access to a lathe you can reduce them in size versus trying to add on which is impossible. Then if you using a micrometer to measure the pivots size just be careful because you can crush the pivot if you're not careful.

 

[dwhite]

Mr. Roundel and JohnR725:  The pictures of the Jauges Seitz gauge allude that the pivot size is measured in 1/100th of a mm.  Is that correct?  So an 11 pivot would be 0.011mm?  That gauge looks very useful, I think I will try to find one.  I did find someone advertising and old style 861 staff on ebay but when he measured it, it turned out to be a new style.  Getting this part is challenging.  I hate to pay Ofrei's price but that may be the way to go.

[dwhite]

JohnR725, I forgot to ask but what book are those pages you posted from?  Thanks!

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, dwhite said:

So an 11 pivot would be 0.011mm

I agree the wording on the gauge can be a bit confusing. So the 50 /100 of a millimeter which is really  0.50 mm then the 11 would be 0.11 mm.

So two of the images come from Bulova training manual. One of the images I have no idea where it came from as it was a very long time ago I got the image. The photographs are mine. Then for the Bulova training book which is really nice to have physical copy seems a bit expensive but it's at the link below and the second link older edition is a PDF in sections.

.https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Bulova-School-Watchmaking-Training/dp/0918845211

http://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

[dwhite]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I agree the wording on the gauge can be a bit confusing. So the 50 /100 of a millimeter which is really  0.50 mm then the 11 would be 0.11 mm.

So two of the images come from Bulova training manual. One of the images I have no idea where it came from as it was a very long time ago I got the image. The photographs are mine. Then for the Bulova training book which is really nice to have physical copy seems a bit expensive but it's at the link below and the second link older edition is a PDF in sections.

.https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Bulova-School-Watchmaking-Training/dp/0918845211

http://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

Thanks!  That answered my question exactly.  I should be able to determine what pivot size I need.  And thanks to all for the enlightenment.  Dan.

[Levine98]

Hi, 

I know this is an old thread, but it has saved me a lot of trouble re: I've been learning repair using salvage Elgin 16s 291 7j movements purchased off eBay. In almost all cases, the balance staffs are shot. So I went ahead and purchased both a balance complete (to get one watch up and running) and an individual staff that I will be using to rebuild a balance for the next movement.

After installing the balance complete, I wasn't able to screw down the balance cock without the balance wheel binding. After close examination using a 10x loupe i could tell the upper pivot was protruding about a hairs width above the upper jewel (and bumping into the cap jewel surface). 

Scratched my head all night long regarding why this was the case. Finally decided to punch out the original (damaged) balance staff and compare it to the new individual staff -- lo and behold difference shapes. Further research led me to the whole Elgin 861 os vs Elgin #861 ns issue, and the fact that the new style is longer.   

Since the packaging for the staffs I bought only said Elgin 861, never would have thought to look this closely until I had the problem. 

Thanks again for this thread--before I read it i was getting ready to try to use 3000 sand paper to file down the balance staff to fit--instead I've just order 2 replacements from ofrei of the Old Style.

Levine98

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

I know this is an old thread, but it has saved me a lot of trouble

Very good that you took the time to find this discussion. Usually people just re-ask the same questions over and over again it never occurs to anyone that they might not be the first to have this problem

48 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

balance complete

Oh and then there's that other problem? Notice how all your watches as serial numbers on every single component other than usually do gears? Notice how to look carefully the balance wheel has  the serial number scratch on it usually it's really faint? All the parts are manufactured together for each watch and then the balance wheel is fit to that watch. So buying generic balance completes even though they were in the catalog can be an issue where you may have to adjust things to get it to work.

Then that assumes that nobody else has been adjusting and playing with the pocket watch which people seem to love to do.

[Levine98]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Very good that you took the time to find this discussion. Usually people just re-ask the same questions over and over again it never occurs to anyone that they might not be the first to have this problem

Oh and then there's that other problem? Notice how all your watches as serial numbers on every single component other than usually do gears? Notice how to look carefully the balance wheel has  the serial number scratch on it usually it's really faint? All the parts are manufactured together for each watch and then the balance wheel is fit to that watch. So buying generic balance completes even though they were in the catalog can be an issue where you may have to adjust things to get it to work.

Then that assumes that nobody else has been adjusting and playing with the pocket watch which people seem to love to do.

Yes, I realize now that "balance complete" is a somewhat loaded term. No harm intended from the vendor I'm sure, but I would have hoped he would have mentioned the fact that the balance staff is a sub-set model of the #861. 

Be then, this whole restoring the Elgins is my classroom, so I guess lesson learned. From here on in I'm only ordering individual parts after thoroughly researching the particulars.

Great forum--glad I joined.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Levine98 said:

Thanks again for this thread--before I read it i was getting ready to try to use 3000 sand paper to file down the balance staff to fit--instead I've just order 2 replacements from ofrei of the Old Style.

You can do even better than that, budget permitting, get a watchmaker's micrometer (absolute best is Feintaster JFA, $$$), Jacot tool, bow and pivot file (again $$$). You will be able to shorten and resize pivots as needed, and will have surpassed many self-called watchmakers that can't fix anything without click-and-get parts. 

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

but I would have hoped he would have mentioned the fact that the balance staff is a sub-set model of the #861.

The reason they don't mention it is because they don't know. In a world of absolutes most people just don't grasp the problem of American pocket watch parts. Even the people selling the parts have no idea.

The only people care about all of this are people were trying to repair things and pondering why things don't fit then take the time to study the material guides to find out what the problem is.

For instance Elgin if you ordered a dozen staffs at one time from them if you didn't specify a pivots size they would give you an assortment of pivots sizes. Which means of somebody is selling staffs out of the assortment unless they've checked the pivots size they have no idea what size they are.

That addition to the JDM suggestion above getting a watchmaker's lathe s another option for refinishing pivots. Also just a really good tool to have if you're working on vintage watches.

[LittleWatchShop]

26 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

balance complete" is a somewhat loaded term

Once I ordered a "balance complete" and got less than what I expected.  I still don't know what the term really means.