Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted
1 hour ago, Plato said:

Aren't punches a standard diameter, 4.7mm if I remember correctly? New Bergeon punches fit my old Boley, perhaps the K&D too?

I have four staking sets (not counting the Seitz) and all of the punches seem to interchange.  I have nothing modern, so cannot say about that, but my suspicion is that you are correct.

Posted
On 11/23/2021 at 11:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I have as many staking sets as I do lathes.  Gotta find a good psychiatrist.

I think you need to get more familiar with the Ebay seller section. Once you have refurbished and made ready an item, sell for a fair price. Even if you don't need the (small) profit that will give you satisfaction and reputation. The buyer will be grateful and may even join our forum.

Posted
9 minutes ago, jdm said:

It is not a fixed standard at least it has not always been. And I doubt that American made tools use metric sizes.

4.7mm is about 3/16 inch, it might be worth investigating. 

Posted
6 minutes ago, Plato said:

4.7mm is about 3/16 inch, it might be worth investigating. 

Yes that should be it. Now I remember, It's the jewelling tools that used one size first then moved to a larger one.

Posted
53 minutes ago, jdm said:

I think you need to get more familiar with the Ebay seller section. Once you have refurbished and made ready an item, sell for a fair price. Even if you don't need the (small) profit that will give you satisfaction and reputation. The buyer will be grateful and may even join our forum.

LOL...I am.  In fact, today I sold a Miyota 6m55 quartz movement.  I bought a bunch of stuff from a junk dealer (for lack of a better term).  He had picked up a bunch of random stuff from a jewelry store that was downsizing.  I got a bunch of older quartz movements.  Been selling them one-by-one.  Not in it for the money...just the satisfaction of making the deal.

All of my staking sets except the little giant came from my dad.  Not gonna sell those.  I may sell the little giant...but it is so pretty.  dunno

Posted
12 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Not in it for the money...just the satisfaction of making the deal.

Any extra cash made can be invested in new tools or watches which is a bonus for us all. 

  • Like 1
Posted
4 hours ago, Plato said:

Aren't punches a standard diameter, 4.7mm if I remember correctly? New Bergeon punches fit my old Boley, perhaps the K&D too? 

 

2 hours ago, jdm said:

It is not a fixed standard at least it has not always been. And I doubt that American made tools use metric sizes.

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, and 4mm (bottom side) stumps. I don't know where this norm developed, but 3/16" is within a few hundredths of a mm of 4.7, and my guess is the Yanks originated it. I use K&D stakes in my Star tool, no problem.

 

I've seen Boley staking tools that had 5mm stumps (centering diameter)but not all, and Horia used to make staking tools with 5mm punches, which makes sense- but they don't make them anymore.

 

I keep 4.7mm steel on hand for making custom punches.

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
On 12/4/2021 at 12:04 AM, nickelsilver said:

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, and 4mm (bottom side) stumps.

I've realized why I wrote that not all are the same size, because mine is not. Stakes are 4.5mm but stumps (of which I have none ATM) are 4mm. The numbering is also different from Boley. I took the chance to reorder the set and make a labelling chart.

punz.jpg.9bc0b202affb3a0e9e16b150bf2ad3a2.jpg

Posted

There are definitely exceptions! But the K&D, Levin, Marshall, Star, Bergeon, Seitz, Favorite, and certainly others are all 4.7mm. You're lucky that at least it's a round dimension, it is generally easier to source steel in whole and half mm sizes than odd diameters like 4.7mm.

 

I'm still quite sure that it was from the American companies that the 4.7 standard arose, being darn close to 3/16". What's funny is the 8mm collet that has been adapted in some form or another by makers around the world came from the American Watch Tool company, who also originated the 20mm collet used by Schaublin in their 102 lathes and other machines. Such a weird mix of metric and inch back then. And now!

Posted
On 12/12/2021 at 5:29 AM, nickelsilver said:

There are definitely exceptions! But the K&D, Levin, Marshall, Star, Bergeon, Seitz, Favorite, and certainly others are all 4.7mm. You're lucky that at least it's a round dimension, it is generally easier to source steel in whole and half mm sizes than odd diameters like 4.7mm.

 

I'm still quite sure that it was from the American companies that the 4.7 standard arose, being darn close to 3/16". What's funny is the 8mm collet that has been adapted in some form or another by makers around the world came from the American Watch Tool company, who also originated the 20mm collet used by Schaublin in their 102 lathes and other machines. Such a weird mix of metric and inch back then. And now!

It didn't take me long to appreciate how varied things are in watchmaking. Certainly that drives my fantasies about being able to machine old punches should I need something special. There is a machinist (see: tubelcain) on YT that I have taken to following in the hopes of incorporating some of his gross skills to the miniature world of watchmaking. I pretty much take my truths wherever I find them.  🙂

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Posted
7 minutes ago, Stymied said:

There is a machinist (see: tubelcain) on YT that I have taken to following in the hopes of incorporating some of his gross skills to the miniature world of watchmaking.

Tubalcain (mrpete222) is great and pleasant to follow but if one is interested in almost maniacal precision machining of smaller parts (yet not watchmaking) then can't miss learning from Joe Pieczynski.

Posted
6 hours ago, jdm said:

Tubalcain (mrpete222) is great and pleasant to follow but if one is interested in almost maniacal precision machining of smaller parts (yet not watchmaking) then can't miss learning from Joe Pieczynski.

Much appreciated. I'll certainly check him out. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Posted
On 4/26/2021 at 4:18 PM, SuspectDevice said:

Could anyone tell me about this staking set?

I'm considering it for a beginner. I'm assuming new Bergeon punches will fit it if I have to replace something.

s-l1600egevfv.thumb.jpg.2f6f1e559f0a537555304d2548aecdad.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203358492156?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Looks identical to what I have save the front two rows are all empty and there are a few of the stakes missing in the upper 72 positions. I recently organized my set and was struck by how much variance there was. Originally a K&D set there were about 7 or 8 Boley tools which didn't seem to fit in anywhere. Also I found that the tools with the capital S prefix follow a different system than the tools with an X suffix. Now that I have the remaining set organized according to a standard (see: K&D Table of Punches)--and primarily am using the X variety, I have a starting point upon which to build. I might even try making a tool out of left-overs should my skills get to that point.

BTW: I also have a very complete set of C&E Marshall stakes but need to find something comparable to the K&D literature I have. So far no luck.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Posted

@LittleWatchShop

In your own experience are particular staking tools at greater risk for damage than others. What I mean is, absent gross misuse or abuse, are particular tools prone to chipping, breakage or marring moreso than others?

Are any particularly difficult to replace? Just wondering out loud.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

Looking at forum posts here and elsewhere I got the idea that a good staking set would go for around $150-$350 depending on condition and how complete the set is. I've noticed some recent ebay auctions (eg, 1, 2, 3, 4) where sets are going for $800 to  $1,200K. Is it that a set that is in very nice condition and more or less complete demands that kind of money, or is that just a variation when looking at one point in time?

Posted

There are a wide variety of sets that were made.  Some small with just a few stakes and stumps (like the Marshall Little Giant I posted about somewhere on the forum), and those you linked to above.  I have seen staking sets go for less than $350 as noted in your post.  But it is a matter of size, completeness, and condition.

Posted

The condition and how complete the set is that is the thing to look out for. No point having a set where the stakes are broken, or the holder for the stakes has taken a hammering and it’s out of line. A nice box also plays its part. Some stakes get blocked and you cannot remove what has blocked them. So before you buy ask the seller about what he or she is selling.

  • Like 1
  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

Hi,

New member here (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/21245-newbie-from-richmond-va/).

I just purchased a vintage "FAVORITE STAKING/RIVETING TOOL SET 100 small tools" off eBay so I can go a little deeper into pocket watch repair/restoration than just salvaging/swapping parts from movements. Wasn't cheap to be sure, but based on the asking prices I'm seeing for complete sets on eBay it looks like I did OK for a quality set in good condition.

Anyhow, one of the questions I have is regards removing old balance staffs and replacing them. I'm working on a couple of Elgin 16s Grade 291s right now and all three movements require balance staff replacement.

Does the striking set come equipped with the right stakes to do this out of the box? Or do I need to purchase an additional tool such as the K & D No. 50 Balance Staff Remover?

Thanks in advance for any info--so glad I found this thread, already answered several questions I thought I was needing to post about staking sets. 

Levine98

Richmond, VA

s-l1600.jpeg

Posted

From what I can see it looks a nice set all in very good condition. I can't see a balance staff remover punch. Normally I would remove the old staff from the balance wheel in my watchmakers lathe with a graver to remove the rivet.  

Posted

I don't have a lathe, so I'm expecting to have to use the staking set tools for this purpose.

I don't actually have the set in hand yet (coming this week), but upon closer inspection of the picture I'm wondering if the item (circled) isn't in fact a K&D #50?s-l1600.thumb.jpeg.8b8d903aa533511dddc73d4f654d6049.jpeg

Posted
2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

From what I can see it looks a nice set all in very good condition. I can't see a balance staff remover punch. Normally I would remove the old staff from the balance wheel in my watchmakers lathe with a graver to remove the rivet.  

So after some more reading I'm starting to suspect that the only way to safely remove a damaged balance staff is to first remove the rivet using a lathe. Is this in fact the only proper way to get the staff out without damaging the balance wheel?

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • it would be nice to have the exact model of the watch the or a picture so we can see exactly what you're talking about. this is because the definition of Swiss watch could be a variety of things and it be helpful if we could see exactly the watch your dealing with then in professional watch repair at least some professionals they do pre-cleaned watches. In other words the hands and dial come off and the entire movement assembled goes through a cleaning machine sometimes I think a shorter bath perhaps so everything is nice and clean for disassembly makes it easier to look for problems. Then other professionals don't like pre-cleaning because it basically obliterates the scene of the crime. Especially when dealing with vintage watches where you're looking for metal filings and problems that may visually go away with cleaning. Then usually super sticky lubrication isn't really a problem for disassembly and typically shouldn't be a problem on a pallet fork bridge because there shouldn't be any lubrication on the bridge at all as you typically do not oil the pallet fork pivots.  
    • A few things you should find out before you can mske a decision of what to do. As Richard said, what is the crown and all of the crown components made of . Then also the stem .  The crown looks to have a steel washer that retains a gasket. So be careful with what chemicals you use to dissolve any stem adhesives or the use of heat. You might swell or melt the gasket unless you are prepared to change that also . The steel washer maybe reactive to alum. Something I've just used to dissolve a broken screw from a plate. First drilled out the centre of the screw with a 0.5mm carbide . Dipped only the section that held the broken screw in Rustins rust remover. This is 40 % phosphoric acid. 3 days and the screw remains were completely dissolved, no trace of steel in the brass threads. A black puddle left in the solution.
    • I suppose this will add to the confusion I have a roller jewel assortment. It lists out American pocket watches for Elgin 18 size and even 16 size it's a 50. But not all the various companies used 50-50 does seem to be common one company had a 51 and the smallest is 43. American parts are always interesting? Francis Elgin for mainsprings will tell you the thickness of the spring other companies will not even though the spring for the same number could come in a variety of thicknesses. But if we actually had the model number of your watch we would find it probably makes a reference that the roller jewel came in different dimensions. So overlook the parts book we find that? So it appears to be 18 and 16 size would be the same sort of the arson different catalog numbers and as I said we don't have your Mongol know which Log number were supposed to be using. Variety of materials garnered her sapphire single or double but zero mention about diameters. Then in a section of rollers in this case rollers with jewels we do get this down in the notes section Roller specifications but of course zero reference to the jewel size. I was really hoping the roller jewel assortment would give us sizes it doesn't really. But it does show a picture of how one particular roller jewel gauge is used  
    • Seems to still do it through my mobile data, I use an android phone almost exclusively, but I'll double check it. Thanks mark Strange, I'll try my laptop that utilities edge. I've been on site half hour since I got home, it hasn't done it yet. Thanks John
    • At work, I'm on MS Edge, not through chose, on my phone, chrome, no issues with either. 
×
×
  • Create New...