ST96 finally put back together (still doesn't work.)

[Daveb]

Well I have finally taken a broken watch apart, lost a couple of bits on the way, but thanks to rodabod on this forum giving me two spare movements, after about 8 hours of swearing and cursing and crawling on the floor, I oiled it and put it back together. Trouble is it still doesn't work. I had a real hard job putting the balance back in and no matter what I do it won't swing freely when I shake it so I suppose that's probably got something to do with it. Does it get any easier?

[jdm]

Was it working before? There checks to be made, e,g. train spins free? pallet action to escape wheel? Balance w/o pallet swifs free? etc.

[vinn3]

one hast to keep trying and reading

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

one hast to keep trying and reading

Reading what in this the specific case? 

[Daveb]

11 minutes ago, jdm said:

Was it working before? There checks to be made, e,g. train spins free? pallet action to escape wheel? Balance w/o pallet swifs free? etc.

No it wasn't working before,there was a lot of old dried grease/ oil under the mainspring barrel, I was hoping it was maybe that.  I have tried another balance that swings freely but as soon as i tighten it it stops swinging. Pallet moves when in place when i push it but doesnt jump it just moves. Thanks, Dave.

[jdm]

1 minute ago, Daveb said:

No it wasn't working before,there was a lot of old dried grease/ oil under the mainspring barrel, I was hoping it was maybe that.  I have tried another balance that swings freely but as soon as i tighten it it stops swinging. Pallet moves when in place when i push it but doesnt jump it just moves. Thanks, Dave.

The balance must have 1. "endshacke" that is a tiny bit of play vertically, so to swing very freely, and 2. a perfectly shaped hairsping. And the pallet when pushed side to side must move the escape wheel. I'd say if this movement looks too messed up, move to another, yes perseverance is a value, but a beginner also needs gratification to fuel motivation.

 

[Daveb]

I am starting to get a bit disheartened, mostly through my own mistakes, I have lost bits from a couple of movements now after spending hours on them. I'm not going to give up though I just can't wait to actually preserve something. I will jump for joy.

I am trying to put a seiko movement back together following marks videos, I spent about 6 hours on it, thought i'd done it then looked down to see a spring on the table, I had put it in but it must have fallen back out. Trouble is it goes under a bridge i took two hours trying to line up. I think a lot of it is just tweezer skills and hand eye coordination.

[jdm]

Try with some Seiko 7S26, they are easy, cheap and common to a lot of nice watches, just don't mess with the hairsping (ask me how do I know). The earlier ones have more parts and springs around.

[Daveb]

That is the movement i'm trying to service. (not the one with the broken balance) but the one the spring came out of. I will Take it back up again tomorrow.Hopefully It's a bit like a crossword, you go off for a break and when you come back to it, it's easier.

[Cad101]

Don't get disheartened Dave we all have to learn and its all about learning keeping calm and learning the nature of the tools your using You'll get there and when you first see that you've managed to get that balance swinging freely I can guarantee you will feel like a God.

[TimFitz]

Just keep trying ,dont give up, we have all been where you are. When things are going wrong stop working & get some rest.Things will be clearer to you. Giving up is easy, staying with it hard. The day will come when you put one back together and it starts ticking & you will jump up and down and feel more wonderful than you can imagine.

We will keep a good thought for you

 

[szbalogh]

10 hours ago, Daveb said:

 Pallet moves when in place when i push it but doesnt jump it just moves.

Well, then the problem is not with the balance. Check the gear train without pallet fork and balance first! If You give it a small winding at the crown it should spin fast at the escape wheel. If ok, then check the pallet fork pinions are in the jewels if the pallet bridge is back in place and the screw is tightened. If the pallet still not moving easily, then check the pivots! Are they bent? Is there any grease left in the pallet hole jewels? No oil needed here. Maybe to much oil or dirt on the escape wheel teeth?

Also check the balance without pallet fork mounted for free swinging. 

Dont move to other movement until You solved this, or at least discovered the problem!

Edited October 24, 2016 by szbalogh

[Daveb]

Thanks for the support, it means a lot.

[frenchie]

2 hours ago, szbalogh said:

Well, then the problem is not with the balance. Check the gear train without pallet fork and balance first! If You give it a small winding at the crown it should spin fast at the escape wheel. If ok, then check the pallet fork pinions are in the jewels if the pallet bridge is back in place and the screw is tightened. If the pallet still not moving easily, then check the pivots! Are they bent? Is there any grease left in the pallet hole jewels? No oil needed here. Maybe to much oil or dirt on the escape wheel teeth?

Also check the balance without pallet fork mounted for free swinging. 

Dont move to other movement until You solved this, or at least discovered the problem!

Very good advice!!!

First the gear train: it should move with just a puff of air. Add the barrel and the click, give the barrel a couple of clicks and the whole train should move easily

Then the balance: when you put it in, it should move very easily. If you give it a very slight shake it should oscillate back and forth by itself a few times

Then, remove the balance, put the pallet fork in: with a few clicks on the mainspring, the slightest puff of air should make it switch.

Then put the balance back in and it should work.

 

If at any point something isn't smooth or takes too much energy to get moving, it's probably still dirty. If not, something is bent, out of alignment, or broken somewhere.

[Daveb]

14 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Very good advice!!!

First the gear train: it should move with just a puff of air. Add the barrel and the click, give the barrel a couple of clicks and the whole train should move easily

Then the balance: when you put it in, it should move very easily. If you give it a very slight shake it should oscillate back and forth by itself a few times

Then, remove the balance, put the pallet fork in: with a few clicks on the mainspring, the slightest puff of air should make it switch.

Then put the balance back in and it should work.

 

If at any point something isn't smooth or takes too much energy to get moving, it's probably still dirty. If not, something is bent, out of alignment, or broken somewhere.

Thanks, I will give it a go and post my findings.

[fjseal]

If the balance swings but stops when you tighten it, could the jewel end caps be fitted wrong (if it's Incabloc). They are flat on one side and the convex side faces upwards. There should be some end float.

[Daveb]

18 hours ago, frenchie said:

Very good advice!!!

First the gear train: it should move with just a puff of air. Add the barrel and the click, give the barrel a couple of clicks and the whole train should move easily

Then the balance: when you put it in, it should move very easily. If you give it a very slight shake it should oscillate back and forth by itself a few times

Then, remove the balance, put the pallet fork in: with a few clicks on the mainspring, the slightest puff of air should make it switch.

Then put the balance back in and it should work.

 

If at any point something isn't smooth or takes too much energy to get moving, it's probably still dirty. If not, something is bent, out of alignment, or broken somewhere.

Well I took the balance and pallet fork out, gave it a little wind and nothing so there is my problem. I took the bridge off and fiddled with the escape wheel and finally got it spinning, then every time I tried to put the pallet fork back in the slightest little nudge to the escape wheel stops it from spinning freely. I then have to loosen the bridge to get it to spin again. Now if I tighten the screws on the bridge it stops spinning, I have to back the screws off again to get it to spin. Escape wheel doesn't look bent or broken at all. Any ideas? Many thanks. Dave.

[Cad101]

Let me get this right you removed balance and pallet fork wound it it didn't spin, you then fiddle a little with the train of gears and it spun freely, was it running free with screws tightened or not and was the escape wheel in at this time I'm unsure wether you had it in or not.

[jdm]

Now if I tighten the screws on the bridge it stops spinning, I have to back the screws off again to get it to spin. Escape wheel doesn't look bent or broken at all. Any ideas? Many thanks. Dave.

Have you checked the end stones for correct installation as suggested above?

[Daveb]

Yes the escape wheel was in spinning freely, then I put the pallet fork in and pushed it and it jumped,so I put the balance in and nothing. I then took the balance and pallet fork out and was back to square one. No movement on escape wheel so had to start again. Now when I tighten the bridge up the escape wheel stops but I'm sure it's in properly.

[Daveb]

3 minutes ago, jdm said:

Have you checked the end stones for correct installation as suggested above?

I think they are OK from what I could see.

[clockboy]

This is part of the fun with horology. Finding a fault is just a matter of elimination. Checking for end shake, wheels running freely, hairspring is centered & coils free etc,etc. 

[StuartBaker104]

7 minutes ago, Daveb said:

Yes the escape wheel was in spinning freely, then I put the pallet fork in and pushed it and it jumped,so I put the balance in and nothing. I then took the balance and pallet fork out and was back to square one. No movement on escape wheel so had to start again. Now when I tighten the bridge up the escape wheel stops but I'm sure it's in properly.

Sounds like you may have a damaged pivot on the escape wheel or further back up the train.

I know this may sound a pain, but I would be inclined to build up one train wheel at a time (without the barrel), and check each one moves freely and runs true, then add one wheel at a time making sure that they can all still do a full revolution without sticking before fitting the next one. As frenchie says above, they should move with a puff of air if you have a blower, but don't blow with your mouth as you will leave moisture behind.

While they are all out is a good time to check every pivot and jewel with a 10x or 12x loupe. Also check you have no damaged teeth or dirt between teeth.

 

[Daveb]

I will give it a go. Thank you.

[Daveb]

At least I,m learning the movement like the back of my hand.