Girard Perregaux

[Bill3]

I recently bought a previously owned Girard Perregaux.  It is labeled "gyromatic" which I assume is their label for automatic.  The watch runs well, keeps good time, but I cannot wind the mainspring.  I can use the crown to set the time, but if I try to wind it I meet resistance.  With great pressure I can advance the stem in the winding mode a little, but I do not think that is a normal resistance that should be encountered in winding.  What is up with this watch?  Is it not intended to be wound?   It does keep very good time with automatic winding alone.  

[WillFly]

Mmm... it's possible that it's not intended to be manually wound - like my Hamilton X-Wind auto. An article here might throw some light on it...

http://www.watchprosite.com/?page=wf.forumpost&fi=6&ti=281256&pi=1831845

[vinn3]

right you are Will.      can you open the back and photo?  vinn

[Marc]

Could also be gummed up / worn / jammed reverser wheels. This may result in the winding rotor helicoptering when you manually wind it, which would result in a very heavy winding action. 

[Bill3]

I have attached a picture of the movement with the back removed.  I know that I should have included a picture with the back removed when I asked the question, but anxiety about scratching the case curbed my enthusiasm.  

As for gummed up reversal wheels, I don't think so.  This watch is very clean inside.  

Thanks to all for the suggestions and references.  

 

[jdm]

"Normally" a full-size crown like this one is means a watch can be manually wound. Auto-only watches like Seiko 5s tend to have a smaller or recessed crown. And the most rational action of the crown full in on an auto-only watch is free turn.

That being said I don't know anything about this mov.t and haven't researched more. It's perfectly possible that is behaving normally.

Edited April 21, 2016 by jdm

[Marc]

That movement is an AS calibre of some sort. If you check under the balance wheel you may find its number.

In my experience (which is far from exhaustive and if anyone else knows different then please chime in) these are less prone to sticky reverser wheel issues than the ETA's, so you're probably right to discount my earlier contribution.

I don't know of any AS movements that specifically shouldn't be hand wound so I would suggest that the stiff winder is a fault rather than a "characteristic". Unfortunately this could well require a more thorough strip down to properly investigate, however, I would start with the crown gasket. Old gaskets can do some weird things over time and I have seen them both go rock hard, or turn to a tar like gunge, either of which is capable of causing the crown to be difficult to turn. Is it also tight in the time setting mode? If so then the crown gasket could well be your culprit.

[Bill3]

I am a beginner and so do not know what the abbreviation "AS" means.  Tell me what you are referring to, please.

[Marc]

AS as in Adolf Schild, it's the movement maker.

I'm not sure if GP actually made any in house movements, but they did buy in from ETA, AS, and (I think) Felsa. If you look underneath the balance wheel you may be able to see a number stamped into the main plate (I'm guessing it will be 1xxx or 2xxx) which is the movement calibre. Once you know this you can almost certainly get a parts list or even a tech sheet for it on line.

[WillFly]

G-P did use some Peseux and AS movements, but, as far as I know, by far the greater part of their ouput was their own manufacture.

[oldhippy]

 

 

It could be just lack of lubrication in the auto mechanism. You need to take out the auto, then see if it winds with ease, if it does that then I would say its the click wheels in the auto that are dry and they will need to be oiled. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by oldhippy

[vinn3]

Quote

 

the  crown looks like an  aftermarket.  of the kind I would put on for fat fingers.  if so,  the  crown seal can swell and make it  stiff to turn.  in any event, the stem and crown  should be removed for inspection.  why not install a new stem and crown?   vinn

[Ishima]

1 hour ago, vinn3 said:

the  crown looks like an  aftermarket.  of the kind I would put on for fat fingers.  if so,  the  crown seal can swell and make it  stiff to turn.  in any event, the stem and crown  should be removed for inspection.  why not install a new stem and crown?   vinn

Not sure i'd advocate that (at least until you know it is the fault), but you do bring up a good point, the issue may exist in the crown and its interaction with the pendant (case) tube. 

At the very least it's worth de-casing the watch and testing the winding action out of case/ see how freely the crown turns in the case without the movement, should be pretty quick to rule that out. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Ishima

[Marc]

2 hours ago, WillFly said:

G-P did use some Peseux and AS movements, but, as far as I know, by far the greater part of their ouput was their own manufacture.

Interesting. A quick check on Ranfft shows that they certainly did do their own in house movements, as well as buying in from other manufacturers.

Slightly less than half of the GP calibres listed on Ranfft are not attributed to other suppliers so I presume are in house, with the balance made up of adopted calibres from AS, ETA, Felsa, Peseux, and FHF.

I shall have to keep my eyes open for the in-house ones in the flesh.

[Bill3]

Several of the people who have responded with suggestions about why this watch is so difficult to wind seem to think that the problem is that there is friction where the stem goes through the case.  However the stem turns very easily when the watch is set.  The hands can be turned without any difficulty at all.  

[Marc]

Ok so that suggests that the crown gasket is unlikely to be the problem.

Oldhippy's suggestion would be my next move. Remove the auto wind module (not just the rotor) and see if the watch hand winds any easier. If so then you will need to focus on the auto mechanism, going through it systematically checking pivots, jewels, reversers, etc. If the problem still persists with the A/W removed then you need to look at the keyless works, crown and ratchet wheels, and through to the barrel.

Either way I would be inclined to think that the problem may well be indicative of the general state of the movement and would carry out a full strip down, clean, and service. The movement does look to be very clean in your photo, which could well mean that the watch back has never been off since it left the factory. That would also mean that it has never been serviced and all of the original lube will have deteriorated. It could well be that it is just gummed up with gluey oils.

[Ishima]

when the crown is in hand set position it may be lifted enough out of the pendant tube, but still, it's not all that likely. 

[DJT2]

I recently serviced one of these GP gyromatic movements. It was a 36000 vph version & as such was based on the AS1920.

I had a similar issue with the stiff winding, I removed the automatic works & it then wound like butter smooth. So I soaked the automatic works in lighter fluid for 24hrs, then soaked the reverse wheels in isopropanol for a few hours. Rebuilt the works placed a drop of D5 on the reverse wheels. Winds great know.

[vinn3]

good plan, "open and inspect"  I am very careful taking a stem out and re-inserting into the movement during your inspecting.  do you have a good mvt. holder?   vinn

[Bill3]

Vinn3,

I plan to follow the of DJT2 which I assume you are referring to.  While doing that I will remove the stem, but this beginner has a question.  I do have a movement holder and will use it during this undertaking, but why is it important to have a "good" movement holder?  Does the quality of the movement holder influence the results?  Curious minds want to know.  Maybe curious minds other than mine want to know.  Thanks for your help.  

[Marc]

@Bill3 

have a read of this thread regarding movement holders.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Marc
typo

[Bill3]

Marc,

I have read the thread on movement holders and it was very helpful.