Cousins Our High Court claim has come to an end

[clockboy]

This is a very sad day for the industry.. For most of us being amateurs the cost of replacing parts for ETA,s etc will be beyond affordability for the customers.

 

see full statement below

 

We have now received the decision from Judge Michael Green on whether or not the High Court has jurisdiction to hear our claim against Swatch, and sadly it is not the decision we had hoped for.

 

As we have pointed out in previous news items (see below),the rules that Judge Green had to apply strictly prevented him from examining in any way how the Swiss Court arrived at its verdict, even if it is blatantly obvious that the verdict is wrong.

 

As Swatch’s lawyer was summing up in the last few minutes oft he hearing, the Judge twice pinned him asking if it was alright if, as a result of the Swiss verdict, consumers had to pay 50% more for their watch repairs. After some stumbling, their lawyer’s reply was “Yes”, so  I am quite sure that Judge Green left his court fully aware that the Swiss verdict does not reflect the norms of British Competition Law. However, the rules simply do not allow him to take that simple fact into account.

 

Judge Green noted that our two arguments relating firstly to British Competition Law now being different from that of the EU, and secondly to the contention that the legality of the Authorised Service Networks has not been tested, had both been mentioned in the Swiss verdict. Because they had been mentioned, he felt that to allow us to argue them again would constitute re examining the Swiss case, and could not be allowed.

 

As to our claim that we were denied our right to be heard because our evidence was not considered, our lawyers had argued that the evidence we provided could not have been looked at because had the Swiss Court done so, it could not have reached the conclusion that it did. In his verdict, Judge Green highlighted general statements in the Swiss verdict that evidence had been looked at, and acknowledged the arguments we made to him, but again he considered that this was re-examining the Swiss verdict, and could not be permitted.

 

Our case has attracted considerable interest within the Legal community, and within minutes of the decision being made public we were approached for comment by one of the largest subscription news services, Global Competition Review. They asked us two very pertinent questions, and I reproduce them for you below along with our responses, as they neatly summarise the consequences arising from our case.

 

What are the key takeaways?
 
Enormous damage has been done to the fundamentals of UK and European Competition Law by the Swiss courts. It has always been the case that the effect on consumers and competition has to be considered in any decision making, but we now have a ruling that states even monopolists can remove wholesale markets from the supply chain without any consumer benefit based justification. Those entities looking to subvert Competition Law and exploit consumers for their own benefit will be looking at this very carefully.
 

Has the court made the wrong decision? If so, will you appeal?
 
The issue lies not with the High Court, but rather with cross border jurisdiction treaties that have no requirement in them for foreign jurisdictions applying UK law to take account of the Ratio Legis [a legal term for the fundamental reasoning why the law was written] of that law, and have no remedy within them for UK Courts to overcome decisions that clearly do not. 
 

After eight years of work, and a very considerable sum in legal costs, I can not begin to tell you how disappointed I am at this outcome. For the time being, there is no further route through the British Courts that Cousins can follow. However, I promised that we would fight to the end, and that promise stands.

 

The UK is no longer part of the Lugano Convention, whose rules Judge Green has applied, and as yet nothing permanent has replaced it. The political tide turned against repair prevention by restricting supply of spare parts some time ago, and our efforts on behalf of the Watch Repair industry have resulted in high level contacts within several Government Departments. You can be sure that we will keep working to overcome this unjust situation that we now all find ourselves in. 

 

I will keep you advised.

 

Kind regards

 

Anthony

[rehajm]

This part is dusturbing…

The UK is no longer part of the Lugano Convention, whose rules Judge Green has applied, and as yet nothing permanent has replaced it.

[RichardHarris123]

29 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Enormous damage has been done to the fundamentals of UK and European Competition Law by the Swiss courts

In a nut shell. 

[spectre6000]

Bummer on many levels.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hands up all those who voted to leave the EU , oopsie.  UK has just signed the Hague convention, next year that will provide cross border clout to British courts.

[oldhippy]

Now this has happened I bet China or India just to name two will start to produce none genuine parts. 

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hands up all those who voted to leave the EU , oopsie.  UK has just signed the Hague convention, next year that will provide cross border clout to British courts.

I did. But idiot Boris Johnson failed miserably in his negotiations. The E U stitched up the UK like a kipper. Nigel Farage  offered his help but big head Boris declined. So this is why we are in this mess all because Johnson wasn't clever enough.  

[RichardHarris123]

I voted leave too, my reasoning was the the EU is undemocratic, no elected officials. I don't regret it but I  am sad that both sides acted like petulant toddlers.  Shameful.  I'm not on other forums but if I was and left this site, would you shun me? Of course not, we aren't petulant toddlers.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Now this has happened I bet China or India just to name two will start to produce none genuine parts. 

I did. But idiot Boris Johnson failed miserably in his negotiations. The E U stitched up the UK like a kipper. Nigel Farage  offered his help but big head Boris declined. So this is why we are in this mess all because Johnson wasn't clever enough.  

I think if you want to play Billy big b.ollocks then you have to have something up your sleeve, anyone that knows how to fight, plays dirty. Lets face it a lot of folk that voted for Brexit just rolled up their sleeves to say up yours EU hoping for good changes. We have idiots for leaders and probably none of them clever enough to clean the shitty stick they were given. I didnt vote, what will be will be.

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I voted leave too, my reasoning was the the EU is undemocratic, no elected officials. I don't regret it but I  am sad that both sides acted like petulant toddlers.  Shameful.  I'm not on other forums but if I was and left this site, would you shun me? Of course not, we aren't petulant toddlers.  

You've signed up to another forum !!! Why you defector , you snake in the grass, you infidel consider yourself shunned.... you.......you........you CAD 

Edited March 28 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Boris Johnson failed miserably in his negotiations

Isn't that the same guy who told Zelenskyy to escalate the war with Russia/Putin when they already had a peace deal? 2 years later and we have half a million young Ukranian boys dead. He doesn't seem very clever...

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You've signed up to another forum !!!

Re-read not on other forums.

[watchweasol]

Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.?

a

[MikeEll]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hands up all those who voted to leave the EU , oopsie.  UK has just signed the Hague convention, next year that will provide cross border clout to British courts.

although not in this case.  It was the Lugano Convention and its deficiencies that allowed a Swiss court decision in the first place.  This isnt really a Brexit issue at all.  A decision that affects both the EU and the UK should never have been heard in Switzerland.

I bet the authorised service centres in the UK are pretty pleased.  It's a massive shame, though; I believe watch owners should be able to choose to have their watch serviced by whoever they trust.

Edited March 28 by MikeEll

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

although not in this case.  It was the Lugano Convention and its deficiencies that allowed a Swiss court decision in the first place.  This isnt really a Brexit issue at all.  A decision that affects both the EU and the UK should never have been heard in Switzerland.

I bet the authorised service centres in the UK are pretty pleased.  It's a massive shame, though; I believe watch owners should be able to choose to have their watch serviced by whoever they trust.

leaving the EU meant that UK was no longer part of the convention and have already been turned down an independent reapplication. I'm pretty sure courts have to be held in Switzerland in this case. There will be a lot more watches stashed away in draws  tbh, folk wont be able to afford to maintain them. Cheap watches will be bought and top end watches by folk with plenty of cash that can pay for service and repair. The expensive once in a lifetime gifts and everything else inbetween will be at the forgotton when they stop working.

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Re-read not on other forums.

I know i was being a numpty, get used to it

52 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.?

a

Anybody that knows will boycott them, but besides repairers who will know. Nope will never buy one, i made that decision as soon as i learnt about this. 

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

I think the outcome could have been guessed

Yes, it's the same (old) song and it's getting worse & worse;

 

Edited March 28 by Endeavor

[clockboy]

Getting back to the issue which is us guys repairing or just enjoying horological exploits. The big worry now is how sound is Cousins as company going forward. The of cost if this 8 year legal battle will be astronomical. Cut backs will happen noticed already how the Cousins catalogue is half its size this year. The main supplier going out of business will hit the UK horological community in a big way. 
 

On the Brexit issue it was about a sovereign country being able to make its own laws and trade with any country in the world. I cannot see what was wrong with this. For those who wish to re join the cost would be very high indeed.

Edited March 28 by clockboy

[Randy55]

Just one more greedy act by Swatch.

They started a number of years ago here in the US..cutting off supplies to watchmakers that could build complications that many Swatch houses couldn't even touch. Old school masters who had gone through some of the most prestigious houses in the world.

Otto Frei has some statements on their page about it.

I tell all my customers to avoid new Swiss watches like the plague,..unless they just want an older one in their collection that still has some parts out on the market, or they have really deep pockets and don't mind waiting months and paying through the nose to get it back.

Plenty of others to choose from..IE Seiko,..or other non-swiss brands

Even a number of Chinese brands are catching up with the Swiss,..and I think that in time, their actions will be their downfall

[Sirius]

people be honest....

Swatch is evil for the watchmakers and repairers, BUT not everything in watches from Switzerland is from the Swatch-Group.

As far as i know, Selitta got sacked by Swatch as a Movement-Assembler for them and they started to produce Movements in their own Name with slight Modifications. As far as i know, they sell Parts to the Market for their Movements. In most cases, if a ETA-Movement fails, it is a valid Option to replace it with a Selitta Movement, which i consider the Solution for this Mess with the Swatch-Group......

I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.

 

ok ?

regards,

Ernst

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, Randy55 said:

Even a number of Chinese brands are catching up with the Swiss,..and I think that in time, their actions will be their downfall

Definitely randy, hopefully greed bites them in the ass.

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, Sirius said:

I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.

Here's a very interesting pod with Sebastien Chaulmontet who is Head of Innovation at Sellita. In this pod, he states that Sellita sells its products, movements and parts, to anyone who wants them.

Whenever someone asked me for advice about which Swiss watch to buy I have always recommended them to go with a brand that uses the Sellita movements, such as Oris, TAG Heuer, Sinn (German), Raymond Weil, and so on and stay away from Swatch owned brands such as Omega, Longines, and Tissot. There are also a lot of amazing micro brands (not sure that's the correct term) using the Sellita movements such as Stowa and Christopher Ward.

Had Swatch been a car manufacturer they would never have gotten away with it, and as far as I know the same laws apply to all manufacturers of consumer products in Europe.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Sirius said:

people be honest....

Swatch is evil for the watchmakers and repairers, BUT not everything in watches from Switzerland is from the Swatch-Group.

As far as i know, Selitta got sacked by Swatch as a Movement-Assembler for them and they started to produce Movements in their own Name with slight Modifications. As far as i know, they sell Parts to the Market for their Movements. In most cases, if a ETA-Movement fails, it is a valid Option to replace it with a Selitta Movement, which i consider the Solution for this Mess with the Swatch-Group......

I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.

 

ok ?

regards,

Ernst

Mostly just Swatch,  Selitta is a good option and have a lot of experience in assembly, since the 50s and apparently will sell to anybody. Though they have had issues with certain movements in the past. There is an vid interview somewhere here in the forum with thier management. 

 

2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Here's a very interesting pod with Sebastien Chaulmontet who is Head of Innovation at Sellita. In this pod, he states that Sellita sells its products, movements and parts, to anyone who wants them.

Whenever someone asked me for advice about which Swiss watch to buy I have always recommended them to go with a brand that uses the Sellita movements, such as Oris, TAG Heuer, Sinn (German), Raymond Weil, and so on and stay away from Swatch owned brands such as Omega, Longines, and Tissot. There are also a lot of amazing micro brands (not sure that's the correct term) using the Sellita movements such as Stowa and Christopher Ward.

Had Swatch been a car manufacturer they would never have gotten away with it, and as far as I know the same laws apply to all manufacturers of consumer products in Europe.

Its lack of information to Joe public, would be nice to see a lot more of it in mainstream media. 

[RichardHarris123]

I bought my Seamaster Coaxial before knowing anything about the Swatch group practices.  I  looked at all the major brands but couldn't find anything to my eye which was as aesthetically pleasing.  I love the watch, hate the group.  In the next few years, I'll have to suck up the service cost, ouch. 

[watchweasol]

It would be nice if Sellita stood up to the block and advertised their products as hard as swatch. We all know what brands use the swatch movements but it’s not that commonly known which watches use SELLITA movements, that way the public could avoid the SWATCH brands, The parts availability and service data being good points to put forward. I have when asked for advice on a watch purchase told the customer to avoid the Swatch brands because of the high cost off parts and servicing in-house.  I think they ,SWATCH are trading on the known names which in the past were quality pieces and people were used to them and therefore bought them on that basis only to find out later when requiring a service it was out of their reach and the watch was deposited in a drawer lo languish un loved and un used for many a year

[VWatchie]

25 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

I think they ,SWATCH are trading on the known names which in the past were quality pieces

It's a deep irony that what made those brands known and appreciated, quality and affordable serviceability, are now exploited for (what I hope to be) short-term gains, and it would seem Swatch is moving to use more and more plastic parts which in my opinion is a kind of fraud towards the customers as it's not advertised. In the below video, Kalle Slaap exposes one such "fraud".

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I bought my Seamaster Coaxial before knowing anything about the Swatch group practices.  I  looked at all the major brands but couldn't find anything to my eye which was as aesthetically pleasing.  I love the watch, hate the group.  In the next few years, I'll have to suck up the service cost, ouch. 

I must admit i like the look of the Seamaster professional 300, after Brosnen's Goldeneye every guy that wants to look cool wants one. One of my mates didn't change the battery in his quartz version soon enough and caused himself over £500 worth of damage, that was around 10 years ago, the cost now must be double that. I no longer want one

[watchweasol]

Hi. Just read that the gullible public were queuing out side the SWATCH shop in London for the new watch I think it was the moon watch just shows how marketing work.  Wait while it stops.