Impulse jewel on balance staff

[nevenbekriev]

Hi John, we have this picture:

 

For sure there is no point to try to measure the hub diameter, it is riveted , in other words deformed, enlarged. And, the staff is not designed to break when punching it out, so punching it out has enlarged the balance arm hole.

Probably You have not read about soldering balance staffs for the same reason that I have not read for it too - there is not such thing whitten in a book, or at least I don't know. But, I have done it in my youth and it works.  And, may be it is the best move for the OP in this situation. Actually, I have done many other things that are not written in a book. For some of them now I regret, and for some I don't.

[signcarver]

On 3/23/2024 at 4:06 PM, nevenbekriev said:

Thinking that the pnches are not propper and the problem is there is misconception.

@nevenbekrievMy thinking here was, if the punch left too much clearance around the pinion it would not be able to push as much metal to become the rivet.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 4:50 PM, JohnR725 said:

why don't we go back to the beginning sometimes reviewing things helps? For instance I don't recall ever seeing the watch model number which watch is this your getting a balance staff for anyway?

@JohnR725 Exactly what i am going to do John! it will take me a few days but i will provide the info you suggested. Thank you! 

I did have one thought we haven't discussed. Suppose the roller table does not fit as tight on the balance staff as it should and is rotating when the balance is started by an "air puffer"? In both attempts the roller table has moved or the entire balance staff had rotated. I'll try to determine that also. 

[nevenbekriev]

2 hours ago, signcarver said:

I did have one thought we haven't discussed. Suppose the roller table does not fit as tight on the balance staff as it should and is rotating when the balance is started by an "air puffer"? In both attempts the roller table has moved or the entire balance staff had rotated. I'll try to determine that also. 

Well, this is esy to determine. For sure, it must be verry hard to impossible to rotate the staff in the balance arm. And the roller must stay firm on the staff and significant force should be used to rotate it. Mark the staff with marker and rotate the roller. The staff should not move, the mark must not change it's position. If the hairspring is on it's place, the studd position must not change

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, signcarver said:

I did have one thought we haven't discussed. Suppose the roller table does not fit as tight on the balance staff as it should and is rotating when the balance is started by an "air puffer"? In both attempts the roller table has moved or the entire balance staff had rotated. I'll try to determine that also. 

On 3/23/2024 at 1:50 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then it's always good to measure the old staff preferably with a micrometer then measured the new staff to verify that all dimensions are exactly the same did you do this?

yes we haven't discussed something but it was covered with the question I asked that I quoted above. Did you measure the old and the new staff all of the dimensions? Often times when the staff is wrong other things will be wrong and even if it's the right staff it still always good the measure just to make sure to avoid unpleasant surprises like roller tables that don't fit. Oftentimes they'll be too loose or they'll be extremely tight. Because unfortunately balance staffs seem to have variations even if the parts book indicates they do not. But a lot of times they will of variations especially if the watch was made over time which is why it's very important to measure the before staff all dimensions you can and the replacement staff to make sure they're exactly the same it's much easier to deal with something before it's attached to the balance wheel

 

 

[signcarver]

@JohnR725 I have a micrometer and will take the measurements you suggested and report back. Thank you!

[signcarver]

I determined that the balance staff is rotating, not the roller table, so my second attempt at riveting was unsuccessful. I have ordered a new balance staff and will take measurements when it arrives.

The balance staff i originally ordered (and now reordered) was specified as: Replacement balance staff: (A. Schild Caliber 984 1002 1021 1124 Original Balance Staff Part 723) so it should be correct.

• Measurements: (see pic below for terminology) xxxyy is a place holder until the new balance staff arrives.
  • Lower pivot: Old - .08 mm New - xxxyy
  • Lower pivot to balance seat: Old - 1.53 mm New - xxxyy
  • Roller shoulder: Old - .42 mm New - xxxyy
  • Hub: Old - xxxyy New - xxxyy
  • Balance shoulder: Old - .86 mm New - xxxyy
  • Collet shoulder: Old - .56 mm New - xxxyy
  • Upper pivot: Old - broken New - xxxyy

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, signcarver said:

Caliber 984 1002 1021 1124 Original Balance Staff Part 723) so it should be correct.

it's good that you pick the right staff because what if you didn't pick the right staff? a for instance let's pick on 984 if we go to link below we see a parts list at the very top you see the balance completes those it's easy to narrow down which one you have butted a case you can see that there are how many? so six balance completes now let's go see how many balance staffs for this watch.  then there's 11 different balance staffs. The purpose the exercise here is for me to point out that especially older watches and through an evolution and there's lots of balance staffs.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=AS_984

then there are various reference books where you can look up each of the staffs I get their dimensions which I'm too lazy to do so instead although it's this website down below. On the top you can pick whether you're looking for a staff or stem to nice site because it has dimensions.

thinking of dimensions if you're going to order a staff here's how they do it

then I only picking on the first number in your list the 984 they only have four of them and it looks like the most popular one is the first one perhaps? then occasionally the numbers are close enough such probably this staff.

then as you click on them to bring up something like this

now while we're here let's see what the other ones are

second one looks like it's basically identical except J is a tiny little bigger. Which does bring up a peculiar question which I need to quote something up above but let's finish looking at the rest of the staff sizing.

as we can see the next one has some minor variations in size.

last one minor variations in size again

On 3/23/2024 at 2:11 PM, nevenbekriev said:

For sure there is no point to try to measure the hub diameter, it is riveted , in other words deformed, enlarged. And, the staff is not designed to break when punching it out, so punching it out has enlarged the balance arm hole.

this brings up a minor problem if you measured the old and in the image it looks definitely enlarged then well you could have a problem. You notice in two of the different staffs the dimension J ranges from 0.85 and another one that's 0.90.

https://www.balancestaffs.com/about.php

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:11 PM, nevenbekriev said:

Hi John, we have this picture:

 

For sure there is no point to try to measure the hub diameter, it is riveted , in other words deformed, enlarged. And, the staff is not designed to break when punching it out, so punching it out has enlarged the balance arm hole.

Probably You have not read about soldering balance staffs for the same reason that I have not read for it too - there is not such thing whitten in a book, or at least I don't know. But, I have done it in my youth and it works.  And, may be it is the best move for the OP in this situation. Actually, I have done many other things that are not written in a book. For some of them now I regret, and for some I don't.

The saying  " who dares wins "  comes to mind. If you dont try something you wont know the outcome of your attempt.  

On 3/25/2024 at 4:55 PM, signcarver said:

@nevenbekrievMy thinking here was, if the punch left too much clearance around the pinion it would not be able to push as much metal to become the rivet.

 

@JohnR725 Exactly what i am going to do John! it will take me a few days but i will provide the info you suggested. Thank you! 

I did have one thought we haven't discussed. Suppose the roller table does not fit as tight on the balance staff as it should and is rotating when the balance is started by an "air puffer"? In both attempts the roller table has moved or the entire balance staff had rotated. I'll try to determine that also. 

Mark the position of the roller on the staff

[RichardHarris123]

I'm going to be either shot or banished from the site but I don't understand why adhesives aren't used. Modern adhesives are brilliant, aeroplanes are stuck together with them.  Ideally the hole in the balance wheel will accommodate a rivet but if not, what do you do?  Replace the balance wheel, roller table etc? They may not be available,so glue them? Worth a try.  

It was good knowing you all, hehe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm going to be either shot or banished from the site but I don't understand why adhesives aren't used. Modern adhesives are brilliant, aeroplanes are stuck together with them.  Ideally the hole in the balance wheel will accommodate a rivet but if not, what do you do?  Replace the balance wheel, roller table etc? They may not be available,so glue them? Worth a try.  

It was good knowing you all, hehe. 

If there was no other option i would go along with that. 

[rehajm]

47 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm going to be either shot or banished from the site but I don't understand why adhesives aren't used. Modern adhesives are brilliant, aeroplanes are stuck together with them.  Ideally the hole in the balance wheel will accommodate a rivet but if not, what do you do?  Replace the balance wheel, roller table etc? They may not be available,so glue them? Worth a try.  

It was good knowing you all, hehe. 

I’m a fan of modern adhesives. Dental glue is horology glue. Given the gloomy outlook for replacement parts we’re headed for a Havana honey future anyways…

Edited March 29 by rehajm
wine and spelling don’t mix

[signcarver]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Dental glue is horology glue.

@rehajm Should it come down to gluing, is dental glue preferable to epoxy?

[Randy55]

5 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm going to be either shot or banished from the site but I don't understand why adhesives aren't used. Modern adhesives are brilliant, aeroplanes are stuck together with them.  Ideally the hole in the balance wheel will accommodate a rivet but if not, what do you do?  Replace the balance wheel, roller table etc? They may not be available,so glue them? Worth a try.  

It was good knowing you all, hehe. 

I think that the only thing you would need to be cautious of, is whether or not the adhesive you use could off-gas. I've seen threads on other boards where super glue was never to be used for this very reason.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, rehajm said:

I’m a fan of modern adhesives. Dental glue is horology glue. Given the gloomy outlook for replacement parts we’re headed for a Havana honey future anyways…

Schellac is already used in this vicinity and we know its safe to use in a watch. Sticks like the proverbial, i think of it like nature's solder.

39 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Schellac is already used in this vicinity and we know its safe to use in a watch. Sticks like the proverbial, i think of it like nature's solder.

Thinking again about this, the staff rivet would probably need to be removed and not used to allow capillary action to take place. Likely the roller jewel will have to be reset, schellac probably being the better option as it requires less heat than solder.

45 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Schellac is already used in this vicinity and we know its safe to use in a watch. Sticks like the proverbial, i think of it like nature's solder.

Thinking again about this, the staff rivet would probably need to be removed and not used to allow capillary action to take place. Likely the roller jewel will have to be reset, schellac probably being the better option as it requires less heat than solder.

[rehajm]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Schellac is already used in this vicinity and we know its safe to use in a watch. Sticks like the proverbial, i think of it like nature's solder.

Yes. I’ve only used the modern adhesives where heat may pose a problem, like the dial. Clearly others here with more skill are comfortable with lower heat soldering.  

…and yes- for this application shellac is the preferred method…

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Yes. I’ve only used the modern adhesives where heat may pose a problem, like the dial. Clearly others here with more skill are comfortable with lower heat soldering.  

…and yes- for this application shellac is the preferred method…

Low melt bismuth solder works for dial feet reattachment, ive tried it on what i considered to be a delicate dial without any issue.

[praezis]

 

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

so six balance completes now let's go see how many balance staffs for this watch.  then there's 11 different balance staffs. The purpose the exercise here is for me to point out that especially older watches and through an evolution and there's lots of balance staffs.

To make the many variants a bit less frightening, we should mention that most variants belong to a special shock protection system. So if you know that (Incabloc, other, no protection…) you will get one or max. two variants.

Frank

[nevenbekriev]

Glueing...

Don't forget htat after staff has been attached to the rim, the next operation is trueing. Will the glued  staff stand it?

I have seen many glued staffs. This is because I am like the last instance in my country. All important antique  movements that has not been made well enough by another watchmakers will come to me. For this reason I usually work almost  only on movements with serious problems... Well, all the balances with glued staffs i have seen were ugly and worth to be shown in the 'monster gallery', may be that's why I don't like the idea of glueing. This doesn't mean that  glueing can't be made well. But shellac will not hold strong and reliable enough.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, praezis said:

To make the many variants a bit less frightening, we should mention that most variants belong to a special shock protection system. So if you know that (Incabloc, other, no protection…) you will get one or max. two variants.

yes the consequences of a watch made over a time span is a variety of systems a whole variety of balance apps. Which makes for a really confusing mess when you look at them in the parts list.

On 3/29/2024 at 10:34 AM, JohnR725 said:

You notice in two of the different staffs the dimension J ranges from 0.85 and another one that's 0.90.

but in this particular case where there's a riveting issue and that particular dimension comes in two dimensions then it could be an issue.

3 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

I have seen many glued staffs.

I don't think I've seen a glued staff yet but I've seen a lot of stupidity annoyances that I have to clean up where people did not do things the right way. Google has its purpose for some thing is even in a watch but gluing the staff into a balance that probably has arms that are already bent and out of alignment does not sound like a good plan. Versus perhaps trying to find another balance staff that fits better.

[rehajm]

Haha- I’ll have to go back in this thread to see how I became the guy that glues balance staffs . The staking set works fine and I wouldn’t know where to put the glue….

Edited March 30 by rehajm

[RichardHarris123]

34 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Haha- I’ll have to go back in this thread to see how I became the guy that glues balance staffs . The staking set works fine and I wouldn’t know where to put the glue….

It was me who suggested gluing balance staffs but only when the hole in the balance wheel has been enlarged.  It was only a thought, as I  said I'm well aware that I could be ostracised for suggesting such heresy. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rehajm said:

Haha- I’ll have to go back in this thread to see how I became the guy that glues balance staffs . The staking set works fine and I wouldn’t know where to put the glue….

Its a last resort idea but still an idea if you cant find one or make one, its also not permanent and could possibly work. 

[signcarver]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:50 PM, nevenbekriev said:

But shellac will not hold strong and reliable enough.

@nevenbekriev Thanks! i wondered about that.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 2:54 PM, JohnR725 said:

Google has its purpose for some thing is even in a watch but gluing the staff into a balance that probably has arms that are already bent and out of alignment does not sound like a good plan.

@JohnR725 I thought that even a small "blob" of glue could have disastrous consequences on the truing of the balance wheel.

New balance staff will arrive later this week. I will take measurements and try installing it. More to come...

[Mercurial]

On 3/31/2024 at 6:47 AM, RichardHarris123 said:

It was me who suggested gluing balance staffs but only when the hole in the balance wheel has been enlarged.  It was only a thought, as I  said I'm well aware that I could be ostracised for suggesting such heresy. 

Never any harm in exploring new ideas, even if they’re at odds with established best practice. 

The two issues I see with using glue are that the next watchmaker to replace the staff won’t expect to encounter glue securing it, or know what kind of glue it is and therefore how it might be removed without damaging the parts, and given concentricity is of utmost importance when restaffing, ensuring the staff is glued in an oversized hole such that it’s centred isn’t  trivial. 
 

On 4/2/2024 at 3:35 AM, signcarver said:

I thought that even a small "blob" of glue could have disastrous consequences on the truing of the balance wheel.

Uneven mass distribution can have a dramatic effect upon the poise of the balance wheel, but the effect is much greater at the balance wheel rim than it is near the staff. This is why the safety cutout on the roller table, the roller jewel and the shellac securing the roller jewel don’t upset poise much, they’re very close to the centre. A blob of shellac or glue on the rim of the balance will upset poise significantly, though. 
 

Best Regards,

Mark