Hamilton 992 & 992B Dust Ring?

[SndChsr]

Good evening folks,

Just wondering, does anyone know if the Hamilton 992 and 992B was equipped with the dust ring around the movement? I am currently working on both and none have them. Looking at ebay, all the ones listed for sale also do not have the dust rings, but I do see on certain youtube videos that some do in fact come with a dust ring.

Can someone please clarify?

Thank you,

Marek

[jdm]

1 hour ago, SndChsr said:

does anyone know if the Hamilton 992 and 992B was equipped with the dust ring around the movement? 

For those not familiar with these specific watches, can you post some pictures to help what we're talking about? In general pictures help greatly in answering with any question. 

[JohnC]

I have never seen a gasket like that on any old pocket watch. Could you reference the video? Seems like a later add-on.

[SndChsr]

Hey guys, I'll post a pic tomorrow as I'm not home tonight. 

Perhaps I haven't explained this very well, but these dust rings are common on many higher end pocket watches. I'm sure you've seen them. It is a steel ring that runs around the movement, covers the dial screws and typically has a hole to accommodate the winding stem.

For now I attach a photo of a similar item but for a Waltham pocket watch. 

[SndChsr]

Here's a video of one. At 3:55 he shows what I'm referring to.

 

Thanks again!

[JohnC]

Oh, I thought you were referring to some kind of rubber thing. I am unsure whether those rings were sold integral with movements, or installed when casing and therefore sometimes applied and sometimes not. Someone else here will know for sure.

[SndChsr]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Oh, I thought you were referring to some kind of rubber thing. I am unsure whether those rings were sold integral with movements, or installed when casing and therefore sometimes applied and sometimes not. Someone else here will know for sure.

Thank you! They would have to be made to fit that specific movement therefore I would think it was part of the original design? We'll see if anyone else chimes in.

Thanks again for the input!

[jdm]

1 hour ago, SndChsr said:

They would have to be made to fit that specific movement therefore I would think it was part of the original design?

Consider, does the mov.t alone fit precisely and stays firm in the case? If not, or if a an empty space around it remains visible, it would have been necessary or appropriate to use a ring.

[SndChsr]

53 minutes ago, jdm said:

Consider, does the mov.t alone fit precisely and stays firm in the case? If not, or if a an empty space around it remains visible, it would have been necessary or appropriate to use a ring.

This is precisely why I ask the question!! The movement is a little loose in the case in the only way to secure it without rattle is to REALLY tighten down the case screws. And as we all know, in watchmaking, NOTHING ought to be forced

The case is also made for the specific movement, thus my original question.

Thanks for replying JDM!

[watchweasol]

The last two pocket watches that i did were almost the same  and one had a ring the other did not so whether they are supplied by the case maker or the watchmaker begs a question. It is possible that the case maker supplies a ring with the case and it is upto the watchmaker when fitting to decide whether the movement needs a ring for a snug fit, may be optional.

[KarlvonKoln]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

The last two pocket watches that i did were almost the same  and one had a ring the other did not so whether they are supplied by the case maker or the watchmaker begs a question. It is possible that the case maker supplies a ring with the case and it is upto the watchmaker when fitting to decide whether the movement needs a ring for a snug fit, may be optional.

Same with me.  Whether a particular movement wore a dust ring or not seemed *at first* to depend upon how well it fit the case.  Then, as I worked on more such watches later, it seemed almost arbitrary and coincidental whether the dust ring was present or not.
But now, I keep a few spares and just play it by ear.  If the case is an open-face screw bezel/screw back, and the movement fits well, I don't worry about trying to fit a dust ring.  If it's a hunter case (with openings by the hinges) and there's room, and the movement can take a dust ring, I'll check if I have one that fits.  If the movement seems to shift a little in the case, I may see if a dust ring helps prevent some of that.  
But all in all, a dust ring can only do so much.  Considering how big are the openings around the balance and between the bridges, and how dust and grit can be moved about by simple differences in air pressure, the dust rings probably don't help as much as the early watchmakers may have thought.

[KarlvonKoln]

Oh!  Forgot to mention: any time I fit a dust ring, I check for clearance by the balance.  Would you believe I had one watch, a little size 0s pendant watch in a hunter case, that had the divots to take a dust ring.  So because I felt it would fit a little bit more securely in the case, I got hold of a dust ring for it.  Got everything together, got her running, and then she would stop in the pendant-up position.
Turns out that the balance had been adjusted previously.  The meantime screws had been adjusted outward *just* far enough that, when the watch was brought into a vertical position, the very tip of the meantime screw would touch the surface of the dust ring and stop the watch.  I took the dust ring back out - no further issues.  Sometimes, it can be all about what the watch wants.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, SndChsr said:

Perhaps I haven't explained this very well, but these dust rings are common on many higher end pocket watches. I'm sure you've seen them. It is a steel ring that runs around the movement, covers the dial screws and typically has a hole to accommodate the winding stem.

I'm not sure that you can make the assumption that dust rings were found on high-end pocket watches. They are found on some pocket watches but not all pocket watches.

Then not all dust rings are rings? Some dust rings are really long strips of metal you feed into a slot on Main plate near the outer edge. Casually I think I remember there were two separate pieces one really long piece covered most of it and I think a shorter piece where the stem went in.

So that everyone understands typically with American pocket watches when they were purchased brand-new they were not in a case. Although the word typical may not even apply? So the early watches would be in one display case the case themselves would be another display case. Then customer purchase the movement the case and they would be assembled and now you have a complete watch. Thinking about it this might even explain maybe when you purchase the movement those had dust rings maybe when they were cased up by the factory they didn't need dust rings?

The problem with American pocket watches they gone through a lot of hands and even if they had a dust ring maybe somebody didn't put it back.  Sometimes you look at a watch you can see the markings from case screws in different positions your watches been re-cased for unknown reasons.

you also run in the problems of the case screws themselves. They may or may not be the right screws for particular case it's in. A lot of times they seem like some more in the past the original screws were misplaced and now you have new screws that have tiny heads that aren't suitable or the metal that there supposed to grip just isn't there anymore

[JohnC]

@SndChsr
by now I am sure you are seeing there is no hard and fast rule..like much else in watch repair! However if your watch has play side to side in the case it sounds like you may want to think about tracking one down.

[SndChsr]

Thank you everybody for the wealth of knowledge provided!!

@JohnR725 I'm pretty sure the case screws are correct for this 992B, but I will double check. 

With all the answers provided here, it actually now makes me think that maybe the dust ring was provided by the case manufacturer and not the movement manufacturer. But if it sits around the movement, one would think it's the latter?!

I'm working on a flawless 992B with a flawless rose-gold salesman display case as we as a flawless dial and hands. I would like for this watch to be 100% complete and original. Finding a dust ring for these movements is VERY hard. Not many floating around and I certainly will not settle with a loose movement inside the case. 

If I need to, I'll fashion some sort of spacer or support between the movement and the case, UNLESS somebody has a dust ring which would fit the 992B that they are willing to sell?

Thanks again to all you fine people who have shed some light on this topic for me.

Very much appreciated!

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, SndChsr said:

If I need to, I'll fashion some sort of spacer or support between the movement and the case, UNLESS somebody has a dust ring which would fit the 992B that they are willing to sell?

Our forum has some American vintage enthusiast repairers but surely a more specialized one must exist? 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Our forum has some American vintage enthusiast repairers but surely a more specialized one must exist? 

To be honest I never really paid attention to the dust ring. They tend to be irritating at times plus you have to remember to put it on. But usually just a generic thin piece of metal that it slips on the watch.

 

[SndChsr]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Our forum has some American vintage enthusiast repairers but surely a more specialized one must exist? 

I tried looking for one for the 992 which would most likely fit, but no luck. Very hard to come by. 

[SndChsr]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

To be honest I never really paid attention to the dust ring. They tend to be irritating at times plus you have to remember to put it on. But usually just a generic thin piece of metal that it slips on the watch.

 

I do have a 16s dust ring for a Waltham, but they differ in design. The one for the Waltham covers the entire hole for the winding stem, whereas the ones for the 992's only cover half the hole and seem to be a tad narrower in width. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, it's just the loose fitment of the movement inside the case that irritates me. 

I'll deal with it somehow, as when the watch is finished it should be one of the nicest examples of the 992B out there. I'll post pics when done.

Thanks to everyone who provided answers. Fantastic community!

[jdm]

8 hours ago, SndChsr said:

I wouldn't make a big deal of it, it's just the loose fitment of the movement inside the case that irritates me.

It is just right that you want the watch to be fully correct. The easiest is to have a new ring from brass. Luckily the US is a country with still many professional and hobbyist machinists, incidentally that kind of people love watches also. Probably you can find one, or on a forum. Even independent auto repair shops should have a lathe. It should not cost much and since you know that is an uncommon item, have more made for others. 

[JohnR725]

Out of curiosity I decided to look at some PDFs. First one is a Waltham catalog from 1911. I did snip out some images and their attached. A link to the catalog which you can download as a PDF for free. The dust bands seem to be scattered through the catalog Casually because therein each category of watch size type or whatever.

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt

Then for the Hamilton 992B would stand the reason of Waltham listed as a part that if we just had a parts list for Hamilton 992B it would be on the parts list? So I'm attaching the Hamilton 992B tech sheet and maybe call it something different?

Then I can give you the search parameter but while you're at the above site you can go here and download this. It's a really good book for basic watch repair and even covers a couple of military watches both pocket wrist watch. Starting on page 84 I believe it explains how to service a Hamilton 992B. So when they finally get to removing the movement I'm not seeing the dust band? I think of it had been here I think they would've shown it or commented about or something.

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575-OrdnanceMaintenanceWristWatchesPocketWatc

 

 

 

992b 1946TECHBULLETIN.pdf

[JohnR725]

I was thinking about the dust guard today as I was on the verge of casing up a Waltham watch. So it's dust ring is in two of the pictures I didn't actually take a magnet to see if it was steel or not? That was in the back of my mind but I just didn't get there. Whatever it is is really thin metal and if you look carefully on one side is a very slight burnished over edge. Basically the smooth edge goes towards the dial the burnished his towards the back of the movement.

Then Elgin came in I'm throwing in a bonus balance wheel hairspring I wonder if that's too much oil on the hairspring? I think this may rate as the absolute worst excessive quantity of oil on the movement of any watch I've ever touched. Because I don't quite recall ever seeing that much lubrication on the hairspring.

Just to show you Elgin did things differently this is an 18 size Elgin made around 1893. As you can see it's dust ring is very different it's just a thin strip of brass. It's supposed to be two strips of brass typically the first would go in followed by this one where the stem goes in. But the other one is conveniently missing. You can see that it slides into grooves on the plate specifically for that.

As I found the dust bands and the Waltham catalog I decided to look in the 1915 Elgin catalog. The 1915 catalog is nice because it's illustrated catalog everything as you can see from the snipped out images is illustrated. I guess I just never paid attention dust bands apparently are movement parts and come with the watch.

What about Hamilton? Hamilton I believe 1961 catalog has parts for all of their watches including 18 size watches were at least they have the part numbers who knows of the action had the parts anymore. But I can find nothing that resembles a dust guard and of course there's no pictures to help out.

[KarlvonKoln]

I had an older Hamilton where the dust ring was a two-piece job.  I wish I'd taken a picture. It had a rigid kind of "saddle" that fit around the mainspring area, and the band part of it had holes at either end to be screwed onto the "saddle".
The more I look at old catalogs of parts, the more I wonder if dust rings were an optional part, each made for certain movements - but ordered by the jeweler or vendor who was doing the casing, if the situation warranted one, such as with a hunter case or (like with the above Hamilton) a case with a hinged front bezel.  Such a case has openings near the hinges and could admit dust inside, so protection was thought to be necessary.  I wonder, too, if perhaps some movements simply came with dust rings already installed and it was common practice to remove them if it was believed the style of case would not warrant them, or if the fitting was too tight to keep them on.  All this is speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was how things transpired back then.

[Nucejoe]

fhttps://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/R64AAOSwRwNf-cCV/s-l1600.jpg

[Nucejoe]

On 11/16/2021 at 5:26 AM, SndChsr said:

does anyone know if the Hamilton 992 and 992B was equipped with the dust ring around the movement? 

Tighten the back plate, shake the watch, if movement is loose insdie the case !! you need a dust cover.

Good luck