Hamilton 689A autowind problem

[DanB]

Hi all,

I just serviced a newly acquired Hamilton 689A movement (aka ETA 2451). The movement without the auto mechanism attached runs fine, good amplitude, rate, beat error. When I attach the autowind mechanism (which has been properly cleaned and oiled), the rotor doesn't move freely. It can be moved manually, but its weight won't move it. There's no visible sign of it touching the movement plate anywhere. The rotor moves fine with it's off the watch. I found that when I first attach the autowind movement without screwing it in, the rotor will move as I rotate the movement. If I screw it on tight, the rotor won't move freely. If I back those screws up about a 1/4 turn, the rotor moves and winds the watch. But I don't want to use the watch with slightly loose screws because I'm pretty confident they will loosen completely. 

Any ideas what's up? I've attached movement photos, but there's not much else to see, at least nothing I've found, that would explain the problem. 

Thanks!

 

[Nucejoe]

We can't possibly remember all details of the auto module geometry, so if you will please show a picture with auto-device removed. to show; 

- The ratchet wheel

- The jewel to ratchet wheel reduction wheel.

The lower jewel to reduction wheel ( if there is one) and has moved can bind the reduction wheel. 

Wrong screw on ratchet wheel can also cause a bind. 

Check posting pins and if module plate is bent ....

See if shimming between the module plate and the bridge it mounts on releases the auto- device to wind.

Keep us posted please.

Regs

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

We can't possibly remember all details of the auto module geometry, so if you will please show a picture with auto-device removed. to show; 

- The ratchet wheel

- The jewel to ratchet wheel reduction wheel.

The lower jewel to reduction wheel ( if there is one) and has moved can bind the reduction wheel. 

Wrong screw on ratchet wheel can also cause a bind. 

Check posting pins and if module plate is bent ....

See if shimming between the module plate and the bridge it mounts on releases the auto- device to wind.

Keep us posted please.

Regs

 

 

 

 

Correction: Check modules  locating posts.

[clockboy]

If it is seated correctly then it could be a faulty rotor bearing. 
 

1043_ETA 2450, 2451, 2453.pdf

[watchweasol]

Hi  sounds like you have some distortion on the plate when fitted.  Was this fault apparent before you took it apart or is it since you serviced it.

[DanB]

Thanks for the replies.

I think there is some distortion of the plate. I didn't notice the distortion when I first got the watch and probably attributed poor movement of the rotor to its needing a cleaning. But when I position the auto mechanism on the plate, screw in one side, the opposite side does lift slightly. That's the first time I saw something like that on an ETA movement. So it could be distortion of the watch plate, or of the auto mechanism plate. I may be able to temporarily borrow an auto mechanism from another 689A, attach it to the main watch plate, and see if the rotor works properly. If it does work then I'll know it was the plate from the original auto mechanism that was distorted. If it doesn't, then it could be the plate from the watch, or something else fouling things up. I'll try that for a start.

[anilv]

DanB, you need to wind the crown a bit as you lower the autowind, this will allow the winding gear to engage the ratchet wheel.

Also does the weight spin freely when the autowind mechanism is off? On some models the autowind weight spins on a plain bush, others have a jewel. This is needs to be really clean.

Anilv

[DanB]

Thanks for the replies.

I think there is some distortion of the plate. I didn't notice the distortion when I first got the watch and probably attributed poor movement of the rotor to its needing a cleaning. But when I position the auto mechanism on the plate, screw in one side, the opposite side does lift slightly. That's the first time I saw something like that on an ETA movement. So it could be distortion of the watch plate, or of the auto mechanism plate. I may be able to temporarily borrow an auto mechanism from another 689A, attach it to the main watch plate, and see if the rotor works properly. If it does work then I'll know it was the plate from the original auto mechanism that was distorted. If it doesn't, then it could be the plate from the watch, or something else fouling things up. I'll try that for a start.

[DanB]

Hi Anilv,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, watch was wound slightly to engage the auto mechanism with the ratchet wheel, and the rotor does spin freely when it's off the movement. When the auto wind is on the watch and its attaching screws are slightly tightened, the rotor does spin freely and winds the watch. It's only when the screws are tightened all the way home that the rotor starts to bind. Back the screws up a quarter turn and it spins freely again. It made sense to check if the rotor was getting hung up on a screw head, but not that I could tell. I'll keep troubleshooting...

[Nucejoe]

On 4/5/2021 at 9:27 PM, Nucejoe said:

See if shimming between the module plate and the bridge it mounts on releases the auto- device to wind.

Make sure you have some end shake on ratchet wheel's reduction wheel.

Shimming the automatic bridge( winder module) is a diagnostic approach which can as well be a quick fix.

If you can't find a thin enough shim, your next easy fix is to gouge the automatic bridge. 

 

 

 

 

[DanB]

Hi all,

Problem is now solved, and it was pretty simple. I had the reduction wheel installed upside down. Once installed properly the autowind mechanism went back on without a hitch. I realized something was wrong after the watch was back together and it ran out of juice despite the rotor working properly. Lesson learned.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[jerryvs]

if you wind manualy the Oscillating Weight moves?

the wind is harder with automatic bridge ?

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by jerryvs

[Nucejoe]

2 minutes ago, jerryvs said:

if you wind manualy the ossilating weight moves?

Fault in winder module( the auto device).

How did you clean& lube the reversers? 

Reversers throw oil outward( due to high speed)  and dry up before long, so should be treated with epilame as well.

 

 

[jerryvs]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Fault in winder module( the auto device).

i have the same problem with 2824/2 revercing wheel, the Auxiliary Reversing Wheel in particular.

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

How did you clean& lube the reversers? 

 i use Lubeta v105 personaly 

[Nucejoe]

Yes its a culprit with all ETA reversers. Lubeta v105 is fine.

The fault is definately in the selfwinder module, I am afraid you got to remove and tear down the selfwinder device to check every part.

[Nucejoe]

Reverser.pdf

[Nucejoe]

11 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Reverser.pdf 1.1 MB · 3 downloads

Did this open on your device? 

This show how significant a good clean is when it comes to reversers. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, jerryvs said:

if you wind manualy the Oscillating Weight moves?

the wind is harder with automatic bridge ?

By the OP above:

Problem is now solved

[DanB]

Yes, I used Lubeta V105 after a thorough cleaning. I only recently learned about it and now it's my go-to for reverser wheels. And I was able to open the pdf - thanks!

[jerryvs]

very nice pdf @Nucejoe

i am traditional too in some cases 

personaly i dry the epilame with air dryer 

and the v105 with air