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Bauertime

Raymond Weil eta 2824 cleaned now has problems.

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My brother had his Raymond Weil watch cleaned at a local watch repair shop. And now it won't stay running over night. The repairman says he is not moving enough during the day. He never had this problem for the ten years he owned the watch until now. It does run all night if you manually wind it. Any thoughts on what has happened.

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5 hours ago, Bauertime said:

My brother had his Raymond Weil watch cleaned at a local watch repair shop. And now it won't stay running over night. The repairman says he is not moving enough during the day. He never had this problem for the ten years he owned the watch until now. It does run all night if you manually wind it. Any thoughts on what has happened.

Return the watch to the repairer. After a full wind it should run (according to the Eta tech sheet) for a minimum of 38hrs without any movement. 

 

5 hours ago, Bauertime said:

My brother had his Raymond Weil watch cleaned at a local watch repair shop. And now it won't stay running over night. The repairman says he is not moving enough during the day. He never had this problem for the ten years he owned the watch until now. It does run all night if you manually wind it. Any thoughts on what has happened.

 

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22 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

they can be manually wound as well and for a reason, for example the eta 2824 which is used in many automatics today. iam wearing a deep blue eta 2824 as i write this. movement will spin the rotor which automatically keeps the mainspring wound but unless you are taking an aerobics class 24/7 there is know way to fully wind an auto such as the 2824 just by motion alone. SO it relies on a manual wind and then motion keeps it wound (by rotor) up to the point where you initially wound it manually. does that make sense.

I don't think that's true. If you wear a 2824 for a day from fully unwound state motion alone should wind it adequately, certainly enough to accumulate enough power reserve to last overnight. He said he's never had this problem in the 10 years he's had it. Why would he suddenly change his habits right after the service? It looks to me the most plausible variable here is the service itself. 

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I'm not sure about that now. I will need to check it out when I go over his house. I was sure the main spring was oiled to much and it was slipping. But since you can wind it and it works fine. It has me puzzled. Maybe he replaced the main spring with a stronger strength spring.

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In order for an automatic to run for longer periods or to its full potential it needs to start with a full wind. Not sure what the watch went through in the last 10 years but it sounds like the movement is operating as it should. It could have been in the last 10 years it started with a full wind and he consistently wore it for 10 years? Or did he ever manually wind it? Did he always wear it when sleeping? If so how many times in 10 years? These questions may not have answers but could explain the difference. Movement is def a big part of the winding process in an auto watch, it is within it self a form of winding, which is why they sell automatic winding watch cases. So by not manually winding and not wearing it while sleeping and purposely leaving sitting for long periods to see what the reserve is will all play a part in this.

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13 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

How does the hand winding feel? Does the rotor spin when hand winding?

   correct me if i am wrong;   the modern auto.  wound watch does not wind by the crown.   the vintage auto do.      vin

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1 hour ago, vinn3 said:

   correct me if i am wrong;   the modern auto.  wound watch does not wind by the crown.   the vintage auto do.      vin

they can be manually wound as well and for a reason, for example the eta 2824 which is used in many automatics today. iam wearing a deep blue eta 2824 as i write this. movement will spin the rotor which automatically keeps the mainspring wound but unless you are taking an aerobics class 24/7 there is know way to fully wind an auto such as the 2824 just by motion alone. SO it relies on a manual wind and then motion keeps it wound (by rotor) up to the point where you initially wound it manually. does that make sense.

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A common ETA auto like a 2824 might take 12 hours or more of wear to go from totally down to fully wound. If you take it off before bed, it will run down those hours, then when you put it on in the morning it will be back to fully wound in just a few hours. So, if putting on an "empty" watch, it's a very good idea to give it a dozen or so winds on the crown to get it up and running, then wearing will take care of the rest.

 

In the case of this watch, it's quite possible that the watchmaker didn't service the reversers correctly. The old technique that ETA themselves promoted was to dilute some Moebius 9020 with benzine, like 2 drops of oil in 10ml, soak the reversers, dry, then install. Now they recommend Lubeta 105, again a soak method. If they were cleaned and not lubed, that's a problem. If they were cleaned and over lubed, that's a problem. If the bearing of the rotor wasn't lubed, again a problem (they recommend Lubeta 106 for that now, but a light touch of 9010 works fine).

 

I would say it needs to go back to the watchmaker but I'm not too confident they will do much better. It's true that very sedentary people tend to have problems with automatics, but it was ok before, so...

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I'm sorry to say that my brother passed away from pancreatic cancer at 59 a year ago. He was the health nut of the family. He ran , road bikes, and hiked all the time. So he was not sedentary at all. Maybe he didn't move as much being sick for that last six months. My other brother has it now, but does not wear it. I'll get it from him and try it for a week. I'll let you know how it works for me. Thanks to everyone for the input.

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3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

A common ETA auto like a 2824 might take 12 hours or more of wear to go from totally down to fully wound. If you take it off before bed, it will run down those hours, then when you put it on in the morning it will be back to fully wound in just a few hours. So, if putting on an "empty" watch, it's a very good idea to give it a dozen or so winds on the crown to get it up and running, then wearing will take care of the rest.

 

In the case of this watch, it's quite possible that the watchmaker didn't service the reversers correctly. The old technique that ETA themselves promoted was to dilute some Moebius 9020 with benzine, like 2 drops of oil in 10ml, soak the reversers, dry, then install. Now they recommend Lubeta 105, again a soak method. If they were cleaned and not lubed, that's a problem. If they were cleaned and over lubed, that's a problem. If the bearing of the rotor wasn't lubed, again a problem (they recommend Lubeta 106 for that now, but a light touch of 9010 works fine).

 

I would say it needs to go back to the watchmaker but I'm not too confident they will do much better. It's true that very sedentary people tend to have problems with automatics, but it was ok before, so...

      good explanation.   it seems like an  auto wind is not worth the trouble to maintain it. ? all the used auto winds i have bought.  will wind with the crown  also.  one,   i just removed the winder assembly and its still running.   it seams the roller bearing in the roter should be a "sealed bearing" ?   vin

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6 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

I don't think that's true. If you wear a 2824 for a day from fully unwound state motion alone should wind it adequately, certainly enough to accumulate enough power reserve to last overnight. He said he's never had this problem in the 10 years he's had it. Why would he suddenly change his habits right after the service? It looks to me the most plausible variable here is the service itself. 

 the watch was serviced, not manually wound then purposely not worn overnight to check the wind down time, so if you ask me habits did change esp since he was sick and was not moving much. Now if he manually wound it and it did not run overnight then i would say without a doubt there is an issue with the service. I don’t think its wise to just automatically jump to service as the culprit, I like to give the professionals the benefit of the doubt.

 

BTW Bauertime sorry for your loss - you will be in my prayers tonight

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9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

In the case of this watch, it's quite possible that the watchmaker didn't service the reversers correctly.

I agree and it may be a subtle issue as we have had various topics on the 2824-2 auto winding issues.

Quote

The old technique that ETA themselves promoted was to dilute some Moebius 9020 with benzine, like 2 drops of oil in 10ml, soak the reversers, dry, then install. Now they recommend Lubeta 105, again a soak method. If they were cleaned and not lubed, that's a problem. If they were cleaned and over lubed, that's a problem.

And then they must have changed their mind again because the attached current technical sheet attached recommends, no cleaning, no lubrication, just replacement as needed, page 16. Something easy for them to say, and it  helps their sales too.

Quote

If the bearing of the rotor wasn't lubed, again a problem (they recommend Lubeta 106 for that now, but a light touch of 9010 works fine).

Yes. that is the other critical area, we had someone that couldn't get effective auto-winding until he cleaned dry the bearing. I will post the link if I will find it again. One gets the maximum efficiency from a dry bearing, and then lubricate so slightly to increase its life.

 

 

2824-2.pdf

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5 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

 the watch was serviced, not manually wound then purposely not worn overnight to check the wind down time, so if you ask me habits did change esp since he was sick and was not moving much. Now if he manually wound it and it did not run overnight then i would say without a doubt there is an issue with the service. I don’t think its wise to just automatically jump to service as the culprit, I like to give the professionals the benefit of the doubt.

 

BTW Bauertime sorry for your loss - you will be in my prayers tonight

The new information was not known to me when I made that post. From the original post I thought it reasonable to assume no change in habit. With the new information it now looks more plausible to assume the watch has not been put through adequate motion. I am confused by your lack of faith in the auto wind mechanism however. Motion alone can fully wind the watch and you certainly do not need to take aerobics class 24/7 to achieve this.  If you consistently wear the watch during the day, doing typically daily activities and set it down for bed it should develop full power reserve in at most 3 days. Otherwise I would not consider it acceptable self wind efficiency, an issue that warrants investigation.

Bauertime you have my condolences.

Edited by CaptCalvin

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4 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

The new information was not known to me when I made that post. From the original post I thought it reasonable to assume no change in habit. With the new information it now looks more plausible to assume the watch has not been put through adequate motion. I am confused by your lack of faith in the auto wind mechanism however. Motion alone can fully wind the watch and you certainly do not need to take aerobics class 24/7 to achieve this.  If you consistently wear the watch during the day, doing typically daily activities and set it down for bed it should develop full power reserve in at most 3 days. Otherwise I would not consider it acceptable self wind efficiency, an issue that warrants investigation.

Bauertime you have my condolences.

Well I’d like to know what autos your wearing that have a 72 hour power reserve, does it come with 5.7lt Hemi mainspring, lol. I would agree with you on the mainspring if we lived in a perfect world but we don’t, the eta 2824 has a 38hr power reserve i happen to own quite a few most were purchased brand new, i can wear them for months even in my sleep and being very active as I am running, walking, working, etc the most i get out of them is maybe 24-30 hrs, and that’s on a new movement. Even though you are wearing the watch and the rotor is turning, the watch is still running therefore its consuming the energy as you input it, so suffices to say it impossible to fully wind a watch on just motion alone. There are other things to take into account as well, not just motion but also temperature. But we wont get into that.

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1 hour ago, saswatch88 said:

Well I’d like to know what autos your wearing that have a 72 hour power reserve, does it come with 5.7lt Hemi mainspring, lol. I would agree with you on the mainspring if we lived in a perfect world but we don’t, the eta 2824 has a 38hr power reserve i happen to own quite a few most were purchased brand new, i can wear them for months even in my sleep and being very active as I am running, walking, working, etc the most i get out of them is maybe 24-30 hrs, and that’s on a new movement. Even though you are wearing the watch and the rotor is turning, the watch is still running therefore its consuming the energy as you input it, so suffices to say it impossible to fully wind a watch on just motion alone. There are other things to take into account as well, not just motion but also temperature. But we wont get into that.

You seem to misunderstand my statement. I did not mean that you can get 3 days of power reserve with typical wearing habits, I meant typical wearing habits(putting it on in the morning, going about your daily business, and setting it down before bed) will wind you watch up to full, and it wouldn't take longer than 3 days for this to happen.

Also autos with power reserves in access of 80 hours are not at all uncommon and quite affordable these days.

Anyway, just because a watch is running as you input it does not mean it cannot get fully wound. The auto wind mechanism can put power in much faster than the escapement can release it. All of my 2824's end up with full power at the end of each day of wear. I can tell this by listening for the mainspring slip on the barrel. If it takes less than half a turn of the crown to hear the spring slip it's fully wound. Heck I even check this on days when I spend most of the day on the computer and only move to eat or use the bathroom. The auto winding was able to take the watch from maybe 2/3 wind in the morning to full wind at night. 

Edited by CaptCalvin

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9 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

You seem to misunderstand my statement. I did not mean that you can get 3 days of power reserve with typical wearing habits, I meant typical wearing habits(putting it on in the morning, going about your daily business, and setting it down before bed) will wind you watch up to full, and it wouldn't take longer than 3 days for this to happen.

Also autos with power reserves in access of 80 hours are not at all uncommon and quite affordable these days.

Anyway, just because a watch is running as you input it does not mean it cannot get fully wound. The auto wind mechanism can put power in much faster than the escapement can release it. All of my 2824's end up with full power at the end of each day of wear. I can tell this by listening for the mainspring slip on the barrel. If it takes less than half a turn of the crown to hear the spring slip it's fully wound. Heck I even check this on days when I spend most of the day on the computer and only move to eat or use the bathroom. The auto winding was able to take the watch from maybe 2/3 wind in the morning to full wind at night. 

What aerobics class are you taking?

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2 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

What aerobics class are you taking?

No aerobic class. Just regular university classes. Around 20 minutes of walking in total to and from classes every Monday to Thursday. Especially sedentary Friday to Sunday. Watch worn all day every day, set down at night because I dislike solid objects of any kind in my sleeping area. 50 year old 2824 running in full health at 310 amplitude and 4 seconds positional delta serviced by yours truly. Had not hand wound it for the half year that I've worn it and always found it to be fully wound whenever I do the spring slip check except for in the mornings. Watch never stopped. Hand winding unnecessary and aerobics class completely unnecessary.

Edited by CaptCalvin

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6 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

No aerobic class. Just regular university classes. Around 20 minutes of walking in total to and from classes every Monday to Thursday. Especially sedentary Friday to Sunday. Watch worn all day every day, set down at night because I dislike solid objects of any kind in my sleeping area. 50 year old 2824 running in full health at 310 amplitude and 4 seconds positional delta serviced by yours truly. Had not hand wound it for the half year that I've worn it and always found it to be fully wound whenever I do the spring slip check except for in the mornings. Watch never stopped. Hand winding unnecessary and aerobics class completely unnecessary.

Hmm didn’t realize they made 2824s 50 years ago

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2 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

Wow i guess 48 is the new 50

Close enough. It's a Titoni Airmaster that my grandfather left with me so I made some educated assumptions. My point is that it's old.

Edited by CaptCalvin

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