Hand setting tools and advice

[AP1875]

Currently working my way through the course, unfortunately reinstalling the hands is not covered in as much detail as removing them, so I just want to ask the members here for some advice.

 

My partner bought me a set of tools recently, included is a red block with a prong I can push down to mount the hands with several plastic adapters of varying sizes.

 

I tried installing the hands on my practice watch, it’s a cheap Panerai copy from Bangkok. When the minute hands gets to the seconds (at 9) it hits the seconds hand and stop the movement.

 

 

How do you know which adapter to use for the hands you are installing?

 

How do you know hard/far to push the hands down?

 

Any advice appreciated, thanks

 

 

 

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[Tmuir]

I'm assuming this is the tool you are talking about.

For the second hand you use the adapter that is solid with no hole, for the hour and minute hand you need to use one with a hole in it big enough to clear the posts that the other hands, but no bigger so you are evenly pressing down on the hand you are fitting

Check that you have not slightly bent the hands removing them, especially the second hand

You want to press the hour hand down until the top of the hole in the hand is flush with the post you are fitting it on unless that will make the hand fowl the dial. The hour hand will generally fit parralel to the dial, but the minute and second hand can be fitted on their posts not perfectly square. Check each hand is parallel to the dial, if it is not figure out why. Have you bent the hand, is it not sitting on its post correctly leaving it at an angle?

Not much pressure is needed especially for the second hand.

[AP1875]

Hi, yes that is the tool I have although I don’t have as many parts as the one you show.

So, for the minute hand the part I require needs to be able to slide over the canon pinion but rest on the pinion/loop at the end of the minute hand so I can push it down.

The part for the hour hand needs to be able to slide over the post of the hour wheel but rest on the hand pinion/loop of the hand.

Is that correct? I have a attachment that will slide over the canon pinion but don’t have one big enough to slide over the hour wheel.


Thanks


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[AP1875]

I’ve just realise the correct term is ‘stake’. Wherever I have written attachment I mean stake just in case that’s confusing.


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[VWatchie]

Just want to chip in that I use hand setting tools like these. I like them because they are flexible and can be slighted tilted if needed when pressing on the hands. Of course, the ideal is for the hands to be perfectly parallel with the dial, but being able to make a tiny adjustment can sometimes be helpful.

I don't understand what you mean by "rest on the pinion/loop at the...". I have limited experience (Vostok and Poljot movements and the Unitas 6498) but as far as I know, the minute and the hour hands are only held by friction on the cannon pinion and hour wheel. They don't "rest" on anything.

Edited August 27, 2018 by VWatchie

[AP1875]

Just want to chip in that I use hand setting tools like these. I like them because they are flexible and can be slighted tilted if needed when pressing on the hands. Of course, the ideal is for the hands to be perfectly parallel with the dial, but being able to make a tiny adjustment can sometimes be helpful.

I’ll definitely check them out.

Do you know what size I’ll need for most wrist watches? 28xx 7750 3135 etc?

And do you know if my description above is what I need to do to install the hands correctly?

Thanks,


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[VWatchie]

Just want to make you aware I just edited my previous message!

[AP1875]

Thanks, I meant the tool. So as you say they are friction fitted to cannon pinion and hour wheel but does the tool work by being able to sit on the pinion/loop of the end of the hands but (the tool) also needs be big enough to slide over the canon pinion/hour post so you can push the hands down far enough. Sorry I hope what I mean is clear, quite hard for me to describe these things


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[VWatchie]

2 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

 

I’ll definitely check them out.

Do you know what size I’ll need for most wrist watches? 28xx 7750 3135 etc?

And do you know if my description above is what I need to do to install the hands correctly?

Thanks,


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I bought the hand setting tools I linked to and the size of them have covered all my needs so far. Your second question is more difficult to answer. This is how I have been doing it so far. Press down the hour hand as far as it goes without fouling the dial. Press down the minute hand as far as it goes without fouling the hour hand. Press on the seconds hand on its pivot without fouling the minute hand.

Oh, just realized I haven't tried these tools with the Unitas 6498/6497 (hands remains to be mounted), so I can't vouch for their size with the Unitas.

[AP1875]

So when you’re doing an hour hand does the tool that you’re using slide over the post of the hour wheel?

The hole in the tool needs to be big enough to slide over the hour wheel post or canon pinion depending which hand you’re fitting?


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[VWatchie]

6 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

Thanks, I meant the tool. So as you say they are friction fitted to cannon pinion and hour wheel but does the tool work by being able to sit on the pinion/loop of the end of the hands but (the tool) also needs be big enough to slide over the canon pinion/hour post so you can push the hands down far enough. Sorry I hope what I mean is clear, quite hard for me to describe these things


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You describe it perfectly! The tool needs to be able to press on the loop of the hands AND be able to slide over the cannon pinion and hour wheel!

[VWatchie]

11 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

So when you’re doing an hour hand does the tool that you’re using slide over the post of the hour wheel?

The hole in the tool needs to be big enough to slide over the hour wheel post or canon pinion depending which hand you’re fitting?


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Yes!

Yes!

[AP1875]

Thanks for confirming :-) just wanted to check before I bought more tools haha


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[AP1875]

Every other day I seem to need another tool....


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[Tmuir]

7 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

Every other day I seem to need another tool....

 

And it will never end, also you will find you buy tools that are described to do one job and you use them for a different one.

My favourite tool for removing hands off watches are my Begeon hairspring leavers.

If you haven't already set yourself up an account on Cousins UK if you plan to get serious, also Eternal Tools in the UK are also worth looking at.

Do your research before buying tools as sometimes you can get away with the cheap Chinese tools, but other times you really need to buy the expensive ones. Don't go cheap on your tweezers or screwdrivers, also invest in a cheap 400 grit diamond sharpening plate to sharpen your screwdrivers and a cheap sharpening holder for the screwdrivers if you haven't already.

[VWatchie]

16 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

Every other day I seem to need another tool....


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I’ve noticed that I’m beginning to enjoy some of my tools as much as my watches. Maybe I’ll die from starvation, but at least I’ll die happy holding my cannon pinion remover tool in my hands. 

[Tmuir]

I also love my vintage cannon pinion remover.

But my favorite new tool is my Bergeon 30671.7 hand remover.

I haven't used it for removing hands, but it was perfect to remove the friction fit wheel on my Elgin Pioneer aircraft clock and I doubt I would of got it off any other way.

 

[Tudor]

I also use the A-F brand hand setters similar to the ones shown in the eBay link. Bergeon makes them as well of course but these are an example of a tool where you don't need to spend a ton of money. It's just a bit of Delrin on the end of an aluminum tube... Get two sets and keep one stock and the other for modifying. Add a colored tape band to the modified ones* to tell them apart easily.

One trick I use is to hold the hand with a piece of rodico near the tip of the hand, and place it that way. I only use the tool for pressing once the hand is on the proper pinion. There is no better way to destroy the seconds hand pinion than to press it when it's not in perfect position... It can also collapse the bore of the seconds hand and then you have a problem... I like the look and idea of those fancy hand setting stands, but you still need to set the hand correctly in the first place. I guess one advantage is it ensures the hand is pressed perpendicular to the main plate.

*Note that I modified my hand setting tools, as I seem to end up doing to every tool, regardless of manufacturer. I used suitable drills to open up the small dimples in the ends of the tools for better clearance and additional depth. I like to just clear the canon pinion so that when I press the hour hand on, I am fully pressing the hand but also have a reference surface of the tool which will hit the top of the hour pinion, preventing me from pressing it too deep. With old printed dials, it's not a big deal, but more modern dials with applied indicies can be a big problem if you press the hands too far.

I also use levers to remove hands, rather than the "presto" tools. Often these old hands are worth more than many people pay for entire watches, so the less you manipulate them, the better. I use Bergeon levers but I still polished them further myself to make them "perfect". They had a very nice mirror polish to them coming in but I wanted to soften a few edges to avoid marks. I think I have since chipped one and I needed to address that as well. They are VERY hard steel...

[chrisdt]

Many tools that you puchase, even Bergeon need 'fettling'. Presto canon pinion remover is one example. Whilst trying to lift the canon pinion it reminded me of one of those cranes in an arcade and just slipped of, the grooves in each arm were too big. Needle file and 2 minutes and it works fine although it would probably have worked on a bigger watch. Hand levers are another example. When first purchased they are more akin to tyre levers but a dremel soon sorts it.

[VWatchie]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:12 PM, Tudor said:

(- - -)

I also use levers to remove hands, rather than the "presto" tools. (- - -) I use Bergeon levers but I still polished them further myself to make them "perfect". They had a very nice mirror polish to them coming in but I wanted to soften a few edges to avoid marks. I think I have since chipped one and I needed to address that as well. They are VERY hard steel...

 

 

If it's not too much trouble, can you tell us a bit about what you use to polish them and how? I'm thinking I could use some 3M lapping film, no? Perhaps, you have or can take a picture? My levers are cheap Indian levers from CousinsUK. They have served me well, but nothing is so good it can't be made better! 

Edited August 30, 2018 by VWatchie

[Tudor]

I use a sewn cotton flap wheel with stainless polish on it. It’s a 6” wheel on a modified bench grinder. 

For the chip, I had to pre grind it a bit on a fine wheel, then bear-tex and finally polishing. 

[yankeedog]

I Just use two tweezers.One to grip the hand, the other to push it down.hold the tips far enough a part so they are just slightly wider than the hole.After mounting the hour hand I rotate it to six o'clock.I then do the minute hand. It is my opinion that this is the most accurate way to do it because the hands are 180 degrees apart and any error will be most  obvious. I then rotate them several time to make sure they don't hit. With the watchrunning I mount the second hand.I press down with the blunt end of the tweezers.

Edited September 24, 2018 by yankeedog
wrong word

[Tudor]

I prefer to set hands at "noon/midnight" so that you can see the tip of the minute hand is on the zero marker and there is exactly the same amount of hour hand exposed on either side.

I have heard of people using "3 o'clock" for setting hands too. With the hands directly on top of one another, you have the highest degree of accuracy possible- they are never closer than this at any point on the dial. It also allows you to evaluate the parallelism of the hands in relation to the dial surface.

I prefer to hold the hand with a piece of rodico- tweezers, even well groomed and polished ones, can scratch the hands. This is a particular concern with newer white gold hands. Then press with the plastic tip tools. Once the hand is set, I clean the surface thoroughly with Rodico before setting the next hand.

[nickelsilver]

Just to concur with above that the Bergeon hairspring collet levers are the thing for pulling all sub seconds and small chronograph hands. Still have the set I got in school 20 years ago, going strong.