Epilame / Fixodrop

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'm currently servicing an Eta 2824 and will probably ignore the service sheet that recommends treating the whole keyless works with Epilame and then using HP1300... I'll skip the Epilame and use 9504 grease.

this is something I've never quite understood about the some of the Swiss companies. In 1957 Omega was using 9010 for the keyless parts with epilam. there's been a slow migration towards using heavier lubrication's but still typically oils and epilam to keep them in place. When it seems like 9504 works so much better.

 

[Knebo]

16 hours ago, VWatchie said:

My current strategy is to epilame treat all parts getting in contact with oil or grease.

I did that also for a few movements - well, mainly in/around the train jewels. I made big efforts to epilame the mainplate WITHOUT getting Epilame into the Pallet fork jewels (where it's not supposed to be, right?). I made litte barriers with Rodico around that jewel and used drops from a syringe to apply on the rest. 

However, I've now stopped doing this. For three reasons:

1. It's a hassle and consumes more of this liquid gold.

2. I didn't see the need when using HP1000/HP1300 lubricants and grease for most part. The two places where I'd use 9010 (i.e. escape wheel and balance) receive Epilame in specific places... or the cap-jewel-setting of the balance suspends the oil sufficiently be capillary action (see my "conflict" about using Epilame on the balance jewels). 

3. Lastly, and here I really wonder about yours and others' experiences: I felt that applying Epliame to the train jewels left them looking hazy (borderline dirty) compared to the (painstakingly achieved) sparkly clean results of my cleaning process. I just can't help but think that the Epilame residuals would mix with the oil and cause more friction/wear. I don't know. 

 

14 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

what happens if lubrication is placed directly on top of epilame ?

simple: it'll stay there. It won't move any further. That's exactly what is happening if you epilame a cap stone. You end up placing the 9010 right on top of the epilame and the oil will sit nicely on that spot.

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I didn't see the need when using HP1000/HP1300 lubricants

I suppose it would depend upon what your lubricating with those? for instance what does the manufacturer say about those lubricants? I have a PDF from the manufacture and a rather peculiar statement found on the bottom of the chart.

my suspicion is the reason the recommending would be without epilam the HP oils like the spread except when they're in Ruby jewel's with steel pivots.

tableEN lubrication 2020.pdf

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I suppose it would depend upon what your lubricating with those? for instance what does the manufacturer say about those lubricants? I have a PDF from the manufacture and a rather peculiar statement found on the bottom of the chart.

my suspicion is the reason the recommending would be without epilam the HP oils like the spread except when they're in Ruby jewel's with steel pivots.

tableEN lubrication 2020.pdf 995.14 kB · 0 downloads

Yes, I was referring to the (jewelled) gear train with HP (most of the time I use 1300, but when Rolex says 1000, I'll use 1000).

Edited April 26 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

On 4/25/2024 at 5:01 PM, mikepilk said:

Have you ever seen grease spread?  I use Molykote DX

Yes and no. I use Moebius 9501 synthetic grease and it is significantly runnier than the Moebius 9504 synthetic grease (and I assume Molykote DX) that I previously used. I haven't seen 9504 spread and it is in my opinion the best grease money can buy. However, my current method of cleaning doesn't remove it from the parts, so that's why I have decided to use the 9501 instead. I believe I read somewhere that Molykote DX too is difficult to clean off. Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure my 9501 grease which expired in June 2022 is runnier now than it was when it was new, but whether new or old it always needs to be stirred before use.

So, that's why I treat the parts of the keyless works, cannon pinion, etc. with epilame.

On 4/26/2024 at 9:05 AM, Knebo said:

I made big efforts to epilame the mainplate WITHOUT getting Epilame into the Pallet fork jewels (where it's not supposed to be, right?).

That was very thoughtful of you and something that had completely passed me by. Not sure what the epilame will do when it wears off in a non-oiled hole. Anyone?

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I read somewhere that Molykote DX too is difficult to clean off.

yes the things we read in the universe I did see some where it was either difficult to clean off or it contaminated the cleaning fluid there was some issue with cleaning.

5 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I'm pretty sure my 9501 grease which expired in June 2022 is runnier now than it was when it was new, but whether new or old it always needs to be stirred before use.

I was trying to remember something about grease where as opposed to a substance of a specific consistency they were suggesting it had a base oil with something to thicken it. That conceivably could indicate that the two could separate and that would be an issue. But there is something else going on here that I had remembered

so I have a link below and the description of the 9501 notice the word that I highlighted? Notice that word appears quite a bit on this particular page like 9415 has that property all so they 8200 mainspring grease and that definitely has to be mixed up when you go to use it because it definitely separates.

just in case you didn't remember that nifty word there is a Wikipedia entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I haven't seen 9504 spread and it is in my opinion the best grease money can buy. However, my current method of cleaning doesn't remove it from the parts,

I wonder if what you're seeing is the boron nitride left behind after cleaning. In other words it's the high-pressure part of the grease and it's probably embedding itself into the metal which is why it doesn't clean off and shouldn't be a problem?

[mikepilk]

56 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

yes the things we read in the universe I did see some where it was either difficult to clean off or it contaminated the cleaning fluid there was some issue with cleaning.

As I'm only cleaning watches in small numbers at home, I pre-clean any significant deposits of old grease and oil before using the cleaning solutions. I scrape off deposits with pegwood and Rodico, and if really dirty, wash parts in naphtha with a brush. 

So I'm happy using DX, but can understand why it's avoided by the pros.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Yes and no. I use Moebius 9501 synthetic grease and it is significantly runnier than the Moebius 9504 synthetic grease (and I assume Molykote DX) that I previously used. I haven't seen 9504 spread and it is in my opinion the best grease money can buy. However, my current method of cleaning doesn't remove it from the parts, so that's why I have decided to use the 9501 instead. I believe I read somewhere that Molykote DX too is difficult to clean off. Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure my 9501 grease which expired in June 2022 is runnier now than it was when it was new, but whether new or old it always needs to be stirred before use.

So, that's why I treat the parts of the keyless works, cannon pinion, etc. with epilame.

That was very thoughtful of you and something that had completely passed me by. Not sure what the epilame will do when it wears off in a non-oiled hole. Anyone?

I have read some suggestions that it can cause wear , particularly on the fork horns of a fully treated pallet fork. I've had half a kilo of steriac acid powder on a shelf for almost a year now, might have a little play today with a heater and a jar. 

50 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

As I'm only cleaning watches in small numbers at home, I pre-clean any significant deposits of old grease and oil before using the cleaning solutions. I scrape off deposits with pegwood and Rodico, and if really dirty, wash parts in naphtha with a brush. 

So I'm happy using DX, but can understand why it's avoided by the pros.

I think its because it gets into their cleaning solutions Mike. Theirs or anyone else's that services the watch next time, or if they need to strip back and rebuild. Could preclean but thats all time for a pro.

On 4/26/2024 at 8:05 AM, Knebo said:

I did that also for a few movements - well, mainly in/around the train jewels. I made big efforts to epilame the mainplate WITHOUT getting Epilame into the Pallet fork jewels (where it's not supposed to be, right?). I made litte barriers with Rodico around that jewel and used drops from a syringe to apply on the rest. 

However, I've now stopped doing this. For three reasons:

1. It's a hassle and consumes more of this liquid gold.

2. I didn't see the need when using HP1000/HP1300 lubricants and grease for most part. The two places where I'd use 9010 (i.e. escape wheel and balance) receive Epilame in specific places... or the cap-jewel-setting of the balance suspends the oil sufficiently be capillary action (see my "conflict" about using Epilame on the balance jewels). 

3. Lastly, and here I really wonder about yours and others' experiences: I felt that applying Epliame to the train jewels left them looking hazy (borderline dirty) compared to the (painstakingly achieved) sparkly clean results of my cleaning process. I just can't help but think that the Epilame residuals would mix with the oil and cause more friction/wear. I don't know. 

 

simple: it'll stay there. It won't move any further. That's exactly what is happening if you epilame a cap stone. You end up placing the 9010 right on top of the epilame and the oil will sit nicely on that spot.

I thought the idea was for the epilame to create a barrier, a wall between the lubrication and anything else, so the lube cant spread.

[rehajm]

I’ve had a couple movements where it is clear the previous watchmaker was diligent with lubrication but the old epilam had turned to a fine white powder covering the pallet fork and keyless parts, which can’t be good for parts. I’m spare with epi since I don’t know how long it takes to degrade to that state…

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have read some suggestions that it can cause wear , particularly on the fork horns of a fully treated pallet fork.

You're thinking metal to jewel in general I guess. Maybe it would be a good idea to peg the pallet staff jewel hole on the main plate after the epilame treatment. I think that could work as it is my impression that the epilame doesn't sit very hard, but I could be wrong about that so feel free to educate me.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

I didn't remember that 9501 was thixotropic (thanks for the link). That would mean it's even runnier during impact (lower viscosity) so perhaps it's time I get some fresh grease as mine seems a bit too runny.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I wonder if what you're seeing is the boron nitride left behind after cleaning. In other words it's the high-pressure part of the grease and it's probably embedding itself into the metal which is why it doesn't clean off and shouldn't be a problem?

What I have seen is a whitish surface after washing but it goes away if I scrub the surface with a brush in a degreaser (Horosolv). I don't think it embeds itself in the metal but sticks very hard to the metal.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think its because it gets into their cleaning solutions Mike. Theirs or anyone else's that services the watch next time, or if they need to strip back and rebuild.

I don't worry too much about the cleaning solution. I just want perfectly clean parts and my solution can be replaced for little money (ELMA RED 1:9). Anyway, I quite often need "to strip back and rebuild" and scrubbing parts by hand isn't exactly the most stimulating part of a service.

Just got confirmation that Moebius 9501 has a lower viscosity (68 cSt at 20° C) than 9504 (305 cSt at 20°). The viscosity of Molykote DX is 285-315 cSt at -25° to +125° C.

I was surprised to see that the viscosity of Moebius 9010 (thin oil!) is higher (150 cSt at 20°) than my 9501 grease!

Edited April 27 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

You're thinking metal to jewel in general I guess. Maybe it would be a good idea to peg the pallet staff jewel hole on the main plate after the epilame treatment. I think that could work as it is my impression that the epilame doesn't sit very hard, but I could be wrong about that so feel free to educate me.

Ive never used epilame H only information i have read and mentally stored about it mostly from Nicklesilver here and elsewhere ( the fork horns thing ), maybe the residue powder that is removed has some grinding effect ? So probably a good idea to limit its application areas to only the absolute necessary. Yes as far as i know epilame rubs off relatively easy, the technique of running the watch to make a groove through it first in the pallet stones where the lubrication is then placed. This i understand creates the barrier for the lube to sit up to. If i can find a good balance of pros and cons of its use then thats one process i can avoid by using a thixotropic lube on the stones. The epilame i would say allows for a more fluid lubrication to be used that would increase amplitude on low beat movements. The stearic acid powder is extremely cheap, the problem is the fuming process to coat parts, is not selective , the whole part has to treated in this method. If epilame residue can cause wear then thats not good, if I remember the conclusion was not proved entirely just a general assumption between watchmakers. The thread is out there somewhere, the same discussion is also old on a facebook group.

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

You're thinking metal to jewel in general I guess. Maybe it would be a good idea to peg the pallet staff jewel hole on the main plate after the epilame treatment. I think that could work as it is my impression that the epilame doesn't sit very hard, but I could be wrong about that so feel free to educate me.

Ive never used epilame H only information i have read and mentally stored about it mostly from Nicklesilver here and elsewhere ( the fork horns thing ), maybe the residue powder that is removed has some grinding effect ? So probably a good idea to limit its application areas to only the absolute necessary. Yes as far as i know epilame rubs off relatively easy, the technique of running the watch to make a groove through it first in the pallet stones where the lubrication is then placed. This i understand creates the barrier for the lube to sit up to. If i can find a good balance of pros and cons of its use then thats one process i can avoid by using a thixotropic lube on the stones. The epilame i would say allows for a more fluid lubrication to be used that would increase amplitude on low beat movements. The stearic acid powder is extremely cheap, the problem is the fuming process to coat parts, is not selective , the whole part has to treated in this method. If epilame residue can cause wear then thats not good, if I remember the conclusion was not proved entirely just a general assumption between watchmakers. The thread is out there somewhere, the same discussion is also old on a facebook group.

55 minutes ago, rehajm said:

I’ve had a couple movements where it is clear the previous watchmaker was diligent with lubrication but the old epilam had turned to a fine white powder covering the pallet fork and keyless parts, which can’t be good for parts. I’m spare with epi since I don’t know how long it takes to degrade to that state…

If its a potential problem for amateurs to use then i would prefer not to take the risk .

[VWatchie]

49 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

maybe the residue powder that is removed has some grinding effect ? So probably a good idea to limit its application areas to only the absolute necessary.

As far as I know, the only time an epilame treatment has potential drawbacks is when something is rubbing on the treated part w/o lubrication in between creating abrasive dust. That is, I don't believe in the method of "running the watch to make a groove through it first in the pallet stones where the lubrication is then placed".

So, I think the rule would be; do not epilame treat parts where rubbing is going on without lubrication. Other than that I don't think we have anything to worry about. That said, I'm not an expert, and I'm always happy to learn more.

Has any other repairer than Alex suggested or explained the "making-a-groove" method? My impression is that it's just something he constructed in his mind. I have not perceived it as a generally practiced method. Again, I could be wrong!

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

As far as I know, the only time an epilame treatment has potential drawbacks is when something is rubbing on the treated part w/o lubrication in between creating abrasive dust. That is, I don't believe in the method of "running the watch to make a groove through it first in the pallet stones where the lubrication is then placed".

So, I think the rule would be; do not epilame treat parts where rubbing is going on without lubrication. Other than that I don't think we have anything to worry about. That said, I'm not an expert, and I'm always happy to learn more.

Has any other repairer than Alex suggested or explained the "making-a-groove" method? My impression is that it's just something he constructed in his mind. I have not perceived it as a generally practiced method. Again, I could be wrong!

I think I've heard that more than from just Alex. That doesn't make it right though, but I'm convinced i saw some literature diagram explaining why to do that. There must be good info here in the archives, I'll have to have a dig around. 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

As far as I know, the only time an epilame treatment has potential drawbacks is when something is rubbing on the treated part w/o lubrication in between creating abrasive dust. That is, I don't believe in the method of "running the watch to make a groove through it first in the pallet stones where the lubrication is then placed".

So, I think the rule would be; do not epilame treat parts where rubbing is going on without lubrication. Other than that I don't think we have anything to worry about. That said, I'm not an expert, and I'm always happy to learn more.

Has any other repairer than Alex suggested or explained the "making-a-groove" method? My impression is that it's just something he constructed in his mind. I have not perceived it as a generally practiced method. Again, I could be wrong!

Ok well i went through a good half of this thread and this is probably where i originally aquired the info.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I don't think it embeds itself in the metal but sticks very hard to the metal.

one of the problems we have is visible versus invisible. For instance millennium disulfide another high pressure lubricant black in color. I was told by somebody worked for the Boeing company that they had a piston like device somewhere that has eight call it around it to grab it so it has to slide and in the collet has to grab. But if somebody puts that type of dry grease on where grease with that in it it embeds itself basically in the metal and they have to throw the whole part away they get use it all. So I suspect on all the dry powdery lubricants that they will go into all the basically microscopic cracks and crannies of the metaland that's where it is visually at least until you scrub it off your visually going to see it which is good because you want your lubrication the stay word is. But I'm sure it doesn't last forever on the metal it's just a really nice lubrication

 

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think I've heard that more than from just Alex. That doesn't make it right though

Oh well, if Master @nickelsilver says it's the way to go, then it is the way to go! I stand corrected! 

Are there any other places where you're supposed to remove the epilame from the contact point of rubbing? I don't think so!

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok well i went through a good half of this thread and this is probably where i originally aquired the info.

Thanks for the effort @Neverenoughwatches, much appreciated! 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Are there any other places where you're supposed to remove the epilame from the contact point of rubbing? I don't think s

thinking of where epilam should be removed did you know there was a patent that covers this? At least for the escapement I'm attaching it.

GB1057607A-1 epilame.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Oh well, if Master @nickelsilver says it's the way to go, then it is the way to go! I stand corrected! 

Are there any other places where you're supposed to remove the epilame from the contact point of rubbing? I don't think so!

Thanks for the effort @Neverenoughwatches, much appreciated! 

Thats why i asked that question earlier, what happens if lubrication is placed directly on top of epilame ?  As opposed to walled within its non epilamed area . I'm not saying its right, i have no idea , just asking questions. 

[VWatchie]

20 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

what happens if lubrication is placed directly on top of epilame ?

I would suspect it to keep the oil from spreading as much as it otherwise would w/o epilame, even when subjected to rubbing by another part, such as the escape wheel teeth rubbing on the impulse face of the pallet jewels.

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

what happens if lubrication is placed directly on top of epilam

have you ever noticed a nicely waxed car when water droplets hit they literally just run off. That's what you would have with epilam. The whole purpose is to keep the oil from spreading and if you put directly on top of the epilam it might not form a nice round ball but it has nothing to stick to which is exactly what is supposed to happen.

[Neverenoughwatches]

57 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

have you ever noticed a nicely waxed car when water droplets hit they literally just run off. That's what you would have with epilam. The whole purpose is to keep the oil from spreading and if you put directly on top of the epilam it might not form a nice round ball but it has nothing to stick to which is exactly what is supposed to happen.

So putting lubrication on top of epilame is bad, it would bead off and not stay where you put it.

[Malocchio]

If the oil drop was freely standing on an epilame treated cap jewel it could easily slide off if you knocked the watch hard but the balance pivot keeps it in place. 

[Waggy]

Maybe I'm over simplifying this and I'm a little late to the discussion, but just by my looking at oil when I use it on a treated cap jewel  the oil stays in one nice bubble, but when I don't it spreads out to the edges of the jewel.

I'm not sure (but could well be wrong) but the analogy of a waxed car and rain is inaccurate in this case, the wax is very hydrophobic and repels the water, however, the process epilame works by is a different physical process based upon cohesion/adhesion (oleophilic) not repulsion (oleophobic)  at least as far as I have read/observed.

If one were to use a oleophobic substance equivalent to wax (hydrophobic) then one would need to create a donut shape to fence in the oil, however if one used such a strategy with a epilame which is oleophilic then the oil would sit on the ring of the donut and not in the 'donut hole', exactly where you don't want it.

Even if the oil is smeared then the oleophilic epilame should pull it back to the center (see diagram below).

Reference

For interest the chemical in epilame is 2-(PERFLUOROHEXYL) ETHYL METHACRYLATE, CAS NO: 2144-53-8

Out of curiosity I looked at the price of buying this in the real world i.e. from a bulk chemical supplier, and for once it is about the same price as buying in the watch world.

Edited April 29 by Waggy

[VWatchie]

Great post @Waggy. It confirms what I was suspecting. If epilame were working like a repellant it would be pretty useless as we want the oil to stay where we place it. 

It is also consistent with my observations. Oil placed at a fixed point on a treated surface is difficult to move from that point. That is the exact opposite of what had happened on a waxed surface.

So again, I feel sceptical about rubbing off the epilame treatment before the oil is applied to the pallet jewel impulse surface.

[Marc]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

the process epilame works by is a different physical process based upon cohesion/adhesion (oleophilic) not repulsion (oleophobic)

According to these guys "Coating watch parts with a thin, even monolayer of epilame provides an effective oleophobic barrier that halts oil spread in its tracks." Which is exactly the same process that causes water beading on a waxed car.

An oleophilic treatment would actually cause the oil to spread out to as thin a layer as possible as every oil molecule would try and come into contact with the oleophilic surface.

The reason an oleophobic surface prevents spreading is because the oil behaves in such a way as to have as little contact with the treated surface as possible.

[Waggy]

25 minutes ago, Marc said:

According to these guys

Sounds like even the manufacturers can't agree, what chance do we have?