Regulator pins clearence

[Matore]

Hi everyone,

 

I got myself into fitting a new balance staff on an Omega 30T2. It's working properly now and it seems to be fairly accurate so far, however it's been running just for a couple of hours. I have one question though, since I'm just an enthusiast. When getting the hairspring stud back in it's position, the regulator pins were so close together that the spring wouldn't get between them. One of them seemed straight, and the other one a bit bent inwards. So really carefully I straightened it up, and the spring went in perfectly. My doubt is should I close them back together or not. The watch is ticking nicely, and the spring bounces a bit between them. I've read different opinions, some saying it should bounce, some saying it shouldn't. It's a Breguet spring. I'm letting it run now, to check it's accuracy. Assuming it goes well, may I leave it as it is? Should the pins grab the coil, shoud it be really tight without grabbing, or should it bounce? I'm uploading a picture and a short video I managed to take.

Thanks!

[clockboy]

Its a matter of experience to know what the the gap size should be. I would not move the regulator pin too much as they tend to snap off and they are difficult to replace.

[oldhippy]

The pins should be straight on a Breguet hairspring, you should be able to adjust the regulator both ways without fouling the hairspring.    

[rodabod]

The gap should be extremely small. Somewhere in the region of maybe 1/2 to the whole thickness of the hairspring. 

Having an excessive gap causes positional variation due to where the spring rests because of gravity. Sometimes when one pin is bent, the hairspring can require a gentle nudge to pass through.

Overall, there is a compromise; you want it to be a small a gap as possible, but at the same time the gap must provide freedom of the hairspring, otherwise the indexing pins will grab the hairspring when adjusting the regulator arm. The pins should also be an even distance from the hairspring such that when it does breathe, it doesn’t tend to rest on one pin more than the other. Sometimes this can require hairspring adjustment to get right. 

[Matore]

Hi everyone! Thanks for the answers. I've been working on it this afternoon and got a nice update on my other post. Check it out on my profile if you'd like.

Cheers!

[jdrichard]

I have bent pins and need to straighten them I think. Thoughts?

[Graziano]

1 hour ago, jdrichard said:

I have bent pins and need to straighten them I think. Thoughts?

Me myself and I, the three of us would, but as mentioned above they are easily broken. If the timepiece is regulated and operating as it should you could leave well alone, and open Pandora's box another day. Have a great day JD

Regs Graziano 

[jdrichard]

35 minutes ago, Graziano said:

Me myself and I, the three of us would, but as mentioned above they are easily broken. If the timepiece is regulated and operating as it should you could leave well alone, and open Pandora's box another day. Have a great day JD

Regs Graziano 

The watch runs too slow. I turned in the 2 meantime screws and still runs slow.

[Graziano]

4 hours ago, jdrichard said:

The watch runs too slow. I turned in the 2 meantime screws and still runs slow.

How slow JD, did you fix the regulator pin. The hairspring must contact "both" pins during vibration. Changing positions will often reveal this problem. There should be very little space between the hairspring and pins. I also wonder if it has the correct balance wheel? Do you have hairspring vibrating tool,? Hairspring may need to be shortened. How's the amplitude?. If the balance wheel is bi-metallic (temperature compensating) with the rim split in two places, DO NOT move the mean time screws that are in the MIDDLE of the two arms. These screws are used when adjusting the temperature compensating characteristics of the watch. The ones to move would be the pair that adjoin the fixed ends of the balance rim, at the balance arms. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Graziano

[oldhippy]

Take the hairspring in a fraction, doing this you will need to set it in beat. 

[JohnR725]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:19 AM, oldhippy said:

The pins should be straight on a Breguet hairspring, you should be able to adjust the regulator both ways without fouling the hairspring.    

ideally for all hairspring regulator pins they should be straight and parallel. Then you definitely should be able to move the regulator without grabbing the hairspring and causing issues usually very bad issues.

The spacing of the pins is different depending upon the type a hairspring you have. For instance the Breguet hairspring should be as close as possible and still allow you to regulate the watch without grabbing the hairspring. But a flat hairspring is supposed to have the pins a little farther apart.

7 hours ago, Graziano said:

Me myself and I, the three of us would, but as mentioned above they are easily broken. If the timepiece is regulated and operating as it should you could leave well alone, and open Pandora's box another day. Have a great day JD

ideally straight and parallel but seldom on a vintage watch because they just weren't made that way. The pins usually come down at an angle and if the watch works who cares. Especially with an Breguet where they need to be tight it's not an issue.

if you look at the books the reason that one of parallel is especially with a flat hairspring would be from going from dial up the dial down the hairspring conceivably will sag move up and down in the regulator pins and that the spacing is not parallel you will have timing variations. But pocket watch hairsprings are really really stiff and they don't move like that is really more about getting the watch to work than worrying about whatever a book says or making it look perfect etc. if it works who cares. Versus trying to replace the regulator pin. Microphone off

2 hours ago, Graziano said:

DO NOT move the mean time screws that are in the MIDDLE of the two arms. These screws are used when adjusting the temperature compensating characteristics of the watch

 as far as I know all of the mean time screws are for timing adjustment not temperature adjustment. I would be really interested to see the reference for this? I'm attaching a Hamilton PDF at the very bottom it talks about the mean time screws the effect of adjusting them. you'll notice that there is no reference to do not touch certain ones back she say you can adjust all four of them for timing reasons.

 

2 hours ago, Graziano said:

How slow JD

how slow would determine the solution. A unfortunate problem with American pocket watches is that they been worked on a lot. Them is all sorts of strange and interesting problems have occurred. There is no guarantee when you restore watch that it's actually going to keep time. For that matter there's no guarantee that anything on that watches what's supposed to be there. Although usually the balance wheels have their serial number scribed on them. If you look at the PDF I attached even though it's a Hamilton PDF the rules will apply to your watch is giving a clue of how much timing you can get out of the mean time screws and it's beyond what you see here then it's something else.

in your picture it looks like the mean time screws on the balance armor out quite a ways? The other thing remember always do on pocket watches check all of the screws make sure there down tight lot at times they will be out for a variety of unknown reasons and sometimes they loosen up in the cleaning machine. Plus of course the balance wheel has to be perfectly round you get all kinds of weird timing if the arms art where there supposed to be.

hamilton_tech_note_on_regulation.pdf

[Graziano]

53 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

as far as I know all of the mean time screws are for timing adjustment not temperature adjustment

Donald de Carle ("Practical Watch Repairing", NAG Press, 1946), who calls the meantime screws "quarter screws" shows the neutral point quite close to the balance arm. He mentions that in some fine watches one pair of meantime screws will be placed in this neutral point so that adjustments will not affect temperature compensation. On a split rim, temperature compensating balance . Henry Fried,  suggests "don't touch them unless you understand their use"! That's all he says! The pair at the ends of the balance arms can be used to adjust to rate with the regulator set in the middle of the index. The pair of screws in the middle of the balance arms are used for adjusting the balance for temperature compensation. If the expanding and/or contracting balance wheel overcompensates for temperature adjustments, these screws are used to compensate for that. This is to paraphrase what is said in Britten's Watch and Clockmaker's Handbook, edition 11. Moving these screws would not be advisable unless you understand and are equipped to adjust the temperature compensation characteristics of a balance wheel.

[jdrichard]

So if I decide to bend the regular pins Bach to vertical. What is the best way of doing this. I don’t believe that they would be angled as they are and would think that some watchmaker bent them accidentally.  It also looks like there is a single timing washer in the outer rim position (x2)

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Graziano said:

 Henry Fried,  suggests "don't touch them unless you understand their use"! That's all he says! 

I think what Henry has is the best. This applies to a lot of things in the watch I knew another watchmaker who refused to touch the banking pins because his grandfather who taught him watch repair said never do that. Unfortunately for both screws what do we do if somebody has adjusted them before us?

in the case of by above example the person who wouldn't touch the banking pins had an 18 size pocket watch that wouldn't run that's because somebody moved the banking pin. Because he was forbidden to touch it he couldn't make the watch run. The same problem is presented with the mean time screws and Hamilton Hamilton clearly says to adjust all four screws.

One of the books I have watch adjustment by jendritzki comments that the mean time screws are only used for small adjustments in the poise of the balance, and for correcting the period of oscillation. Then the only reference to the two screws are they must not follow the movement of the room caused by change of temperature? We will note the? Was not there I'm putting it there so by their very nature the other screws are in a position where obviously they will change with temperature even though it would be nice if they did not.

Then for a question I was having what about timing washers? So in this book the reference the timing washers is they should be placed nearest the arm of the balance provided that one wishes to change only the rate in the temperature compensation.

So I guess the problem I'm having is I'm not horribly worried about the temperature compensation. I'm dealing with hundred your pocket watches that have been played with and the balance wheels hairspring everything are in all sorts of bizarre and interesting conditions so if I have to adjust all of the mean time screws to get the watch to keep time that's what I'm going to do. then I'm going to assume that because Hamilton recommends adjusting all four screws that maybe they just aren't worried that much about temperature adjustment? Maybe somebody could run a test and see how much problem we have.

So I will agree in an ideal perfect world don't adjust the other screws but if they been played with it's not like we can run out and get a balance complete for this.

4 hours ago, jdrichard said:

 It also looks like there is a single timing washer in the outer rim position (x2)

and trying to figure out whether you have one single timing washer or two timing washers which is what you're supposed to have. Then there's supposed to be in the correct location or you'd screw up your temperature compensation if you're worried about that. But because you're running slow just take the washers off.

[jdrichard]

On 5/25/2021 at 12:33 PM, JohnR725 said:

I think what Henry has is the best. This applies to a lot of things in the watch I knew another watchmaker who refused to touch the banking pins because his grandfather who taught him watch repair said never do that. Unfortunately for both screws what do we do if somebody has adjusted them before us?

in the case of by above example the person who wouldn't touch the banking pins had an 18 size pocket watch that wouldn't run that's because somebody moved the banking pin. Because he was forbidden to touch it he couldn't make the watch run. The same problem is presented with the mean time screws and Hamilton Hamilton clearly says to adjust all four screws.

One of the books I have watch adjustment by jendritzki comments that the mean time screws are only used for small adjustments in the poise of the balance, and for correcting the period of oscillation. Then the only reference to the two screws are they must not follow the movement of the room caused by change of temperature? We will note the? Was not there I'm putting it there so by their very nature the other screws are in a position where obviously they will change with temperature even though it would be nice if they did not.

Then for a question I was having what about timing washers? So in this book the reference the timing washers is they should be placed nearest the arm of the balance provided that one wishes to change only the rate in the temperature compensation.

So I guess the problem I'm having is I'm not horribly worried about the temperature compensation. I'm dealing with hundred your pocket watches that have been played with and the balance wheels hairspring everything are in all sorts of bizarre and interesting conditions so if I have to adjust all of the mean time screws to get the watch to keep time that's what I'm going to do. then I'm going to assume that because Hamilton recommends adjusting all four screws that maybe they just aren't worried that much about temperature adjustment? Maybe somebody could run a test and see how much problem we have.

So I will agree in an ideal perfect world don't adjust the other screws but if they been played with it's not like we can run out and get a balance complete for this.

and trying to figure out whether you have one single timing washer or two timing washers which is what you're supposed to have. Then there's supposed to be in the correct location or you'd screw up your temperature compensation if you're worried about that. But because you're running slow just take the washers off.

Big thanks for a very comprehensive response. I do think I will start by removing the timing washers that were there to slow the watch I now need to speed up. I will then further adjust the meantime screws to make sure there are equal number of threads showing. Then I shall test the watch timing and beat error. If there are still variations in positions , I will then poise the balance and make sure it has no low points. Then I will reassemble and test.

[oldhippy]

Someone has played about with it in the past because one of the screws that holds the top cap inplace is not correct it's odd, and as you have mentioned it has a timing washer. As you know it is a compensated balance so it would have been adjusted correctly before sale. Any sign of timing screws been filed down, that is a common thing. I was taught to never move the banking pins until you have checked everything else in the escapement, in other words that should be the last resort.  As I have already said you could just take the hairspring in a fraction.