Watch Quality And Values?

[mcass]

For years I have considered buying more watches, mainly for my own daily use. However, while I cant see myself buying something that I wouldnt personally wear, I am conscious of watch quality and potential to resell at some point. Any and all articles that I can find regarding watch collecting itself always refer to of course the Jaeger LeCoultre, Rolex, Patek Phillipe, Omega, etc. watch makers as the only ones worth writing about and interviewing of collectors seems to be a who's who of the worlds millionaires. Most of us though that love watches can not afford these. At least I can not imagine I am the only one. Can someone with more knowledge of watches than myself give me an idea of some watch brands that may still tend to hold their value and are more affordable? For instance in the $50-200 range? I personally like vintage watches of course and prefer automatics, however I am also unfamiliar with many current brands like Stauer and Invicta. Are these very good and do they hold value? Is it too soon to tell? Where does something like Bulova stand? I have liked the syling and owned several Relics but know the quality is just not there in the long run and retaining value is not something they are known for. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.... 

[mcass]

Kronhen & Sohne? Invicta? Bulova? Elgin? Bruen? Raketa? Benrus? Casio? Seiko? Citizen? Swatch? Hamilton? Longines? Poljot? Skagen? Vostok?......

[clockboy]

If you are going to Re-sell then the look is important to most buyers i.e. no scratches or dings etc. Most buyers do not understand the mechanics of watches.

[WillFly]

Buying and selling watches - as opposed to collecting watches - is a complicated business, and collecting with a possible view to future resale is even more complex. I think you have to lay down some ground rules for yourself. And, of course, your taste is yours as an individual.

 

I collect watches, and occasionally sell some on, either because I'm tired of them or - more usually - because I want to fund something a little more expensive. My ground rules, such as they are:

 

1. I never buy a watch that I don't like the look of, or one with a cheap movement - regardless of maker.

2. I never buy with a view to resell or make a profit.

3. I always buy second-hand watches.

4. I rarely buy anything made later than 1970 but see below!

5. I rarely buy quartz, and only occasional automatics.

 

And you can see the sort of stuff I have on my watch pages - see the link in my signature below.

 

The prices I've paid range from £8 (really!) to around £300, with £100 as the median. In the last year, however, I've changed tack slightly and, instead of scouring eBay for bargains (of which I have plenty), I've been saving up and going for some more interesting stuff (Hamilton, LeCoultre, Christopher Ward), each costing in the £600-£700 mark. And the Hamilton and Christopher Ward watches are post-2000 in year of manufacture. And automatics - which I normally rarely buy.

 

Many of my vintage watches have small case/dial sizes. This doesn't bother me in the slightest, but many of them would be considered "ladies" watches these days because of their size. I love dial designs from the 1930s and 1940s - particularly military in actuality or in style. Genuine military watches always hold their value and generally have excellent movements.

 

My tip for purchasing: pre-1970 Roamers, Great watches and great movements, but not now as cheap as they used to be...

[Alaskamick]

Will a Good well laid out reply. Great advice.

 

I have a number of automatic Omega's which I bought quite a while ago and the majority are automatics but with hindsight I should really have concentrated on better looking hand winders.

 

It's no trouble to wind up and reset a hand winder plus the movements looks nicer and are easier to work on.

 

I'm thinking of trying to sell all the automatics and like you, buying more expensive hand winders.

 

Mike

 

ps. a great collection you have.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Alaskamick

[Geo]

Excellent post Will. Your one to five list fits exactly with my way of thinking!

[StuartBaker104]

Plus 1 on "hand winders"... Automatics with any sort of complication - date, moonphase, etc need to be kept wound or will never get worn in my experience. Depending on who you ask, automatics don't like being hand wound, and manually setting the date on a watch without a quickset will add wear to the canon pinion and keyless works.

Plus 1 on "buy what you like"... There's more of a chance that others will too. Don't buy an omega just because it's an omega.

Plus 1 on "profit"... How would that work anyway?

The most important thing I would add to Will's excellent summary is "Condition". I see so many watches on ebay with damaged dials, missing or incorrect hands or crowns, or worn plating - steer clear unless buying for parts (see below). With the exception of Omegas and a few others, getting a replacement dial, hands or crown is almost impossible (if anyone can tell me where to get a gold crown for my 1970 Record I'll be amazed). Dials can be refinished but rarely look original and this will cost upwards of £100.

If you price up the cost of fixing up a tatty or broken watch with new parts, it will cost a lot more than buying an equivalent one that starts off good, even if you buy broken watches to harvest parts.

Gold plating is also a complete no-no for me.

My personal good buys include Record and I have a soft spot for 1960s chronos - Venus, Valjoux, Landeron, were all sold under a huge range of brand names but with the same great movements.

Hope that helps

S

[WillFly]

Just a quick comment on gold plating: I'm not keen on that either, though I've occasionally bought "brassed" watches because the make/style was otherwise really good and at a bargain price.

 

However, gold-filled watch cases, particularly on American watches like Hamilton, Elgin, etc. can be excellent. Gold-filling is where a thin sheet of brass is sandwiched at high compression between two thin sheets of gold, and the resulting mix used for the case. These are high quality and worth buying, as opposed to electro-plated cases.

[clockboy]

Buying and selling watches - as opposed to collecting watches - is a complicated business, and collecting with a possible view to future resale is even more complex. I think you have to lay down some ground rules for yourself. And, of course, your taste is yours as an individual.

 

I collect watches, and occasionally sell some on, either because I'm tired of them or - more usually - because I want to fund something a little more expensive. My ground rules, such as they are:

 

1. I never buy a watch that I don't like the look of, or one with a cheap movement - regardless of maker.

2. I never buy with a view to resell or make a profit.

3. I always buy second-hand watches.

4. I rarely buy anything made later than 1970 but see below!

5. I rarely buy quartz, and only occasional automatics.

 

And you can see the sort of stuff I have on my watch pages - see the link in my signature below.

 

The prices I've paid range from £8 (really!) to around £300, with £100 as the median. In the last year, however, I've changed tack slightly and, instead of scouring eBay for bargains (of which I have plenty), I've been saving up and going for some more interesting stuff (Hamilton, LeCoultre, Christopher Ward), each costing in the £600-£700 mark. And the Hamilton and Christopher Ward watches are post-2000 in year of manufacture. And automatics - which I normally rarely buy.

 

Many of my vintage watches have small case/dial sizes. This doesn't bother me in the slightest, but many of them would be considered "ladies" watches these days because of their size. I love dial designs from the 1930s and 1940s - particularly military in actuality or in style. Genuine military watches always hold their value and generally have excellent movements.

 

My tip for purchasing: pre-1970 Roamers, Great watches and great movements, but not now as cheap as they used to be...

Good post Will much the same rules as myself. However I have noticed there are some good quartz Tag watches on the bay that need either a new or serviced movement. They are not my style of watch but the re-sales could be good.

[stroppy]

I am no one to disagree but I think some of you are thinking the way a good jeweller would think rather than what the "average Joe" would think.  I am no watch expert and neither am I proficient in watch repair in any shape or form.  So my reasons for buying a watch are very simple.  I cannot afford the Omegas and Rolex watches of this world (unless they originate from a Thai market stall).

 

1. I will buy a "brand" watch over an unknown brand if I wanted to keep the timepiece.  Casio, Seiko, Citizen and their cheaper offshoots like Pulsar, Lorus and Q&Q.

2. I'm happy to buy a Chinese watch (usually with a Tongji movement) if it is a nice looking piece.

3. I prefer mechanical (auto first, then hand-wind) over quartz but a nice looking analogue quartz is just fine.

4. I don't buy with a view to resale.  I buy to keep.

5. If a cheap Chinese watch throws in the towel I don't fret too much because the monetary loss is not great.

6. I'll buy an more frugally-priced Swiss watch if I can afford it.  As mentioned above...the Roamers are great value.

Edited February 20, 2016 by stroppy

[WillFly]

Each to his own is my motto - there are no rules other than the ones we make for ourselves. I happen to like vintage watches - which, in my case, usually means pre-1960 where possible. On the other hand, I have no time for dive watches, whatever the make - the style just doesn't appeal. As for quartz, I own two solar-powered watches - I've always been interested in those: a Seiko Solar and a Citizen Eco-Drive chrono.

[ramrod]

this is a great thread. and my methods are similar to most of you guys - especially will's.

i never buy with the intention of resale. the only watches that have left my possession have been given away. i'd love to sell to make money, but i'm just not good at it.

 

i rarely buy plated or gold filled. stainless all of the way. however, seeing will's explanation of gold filled watches, i would reconsider them. if i buy a plated watch, it's with the intention of placing the movement into a SS case.

 

automatics and handwinders are neck and neck with me. quartz is almost entirely out of the question - i don't go looking with the intention of buying quartz. although, i do own a few.

 

small watches - i don't buy them because no matter how beautiful they are, i don't like how they look on my wrist and therefore i won't wear them. two of the most beautiful watches i own are bulovas - but they're too small. i've not had them on my wrist.

 

it's interesting to see what the rest of you view as being valuable watches. lately, i'm drawn to bulova, mido, roamer (and i will keep in mind will's tip on pre 70's roamers). these are the mid level swiss watches that are often overlooked.

another thing that i'm drawn to is unusually shaped cases. mido makes a sweet oval shaped case, bulova is way out there with some of their stuff - especially asymmetricals. to me, these could hold the most value because you almost never see them on someone's wrist - and they attract the most attention. it's always the round watches that get wrist time.

 

as much as i love seiko watches, i am strongly attracted to swiss movements. therefore the bulova, mido and roamer attraction - and i count accutron in there with the bulovas. i see an omega in my future. just a simple 60's seamaster with date and i'm good.

 

i think you would do well with bulova, roamer, waltham, hamilton, longines and the like. they are the steady eddie of the watch world. just keep away from the midos - i want all of them.

[mcass]

WOW! Thank you for all of the input. I can tell there is some very good advice here. Thank you all for contributing and I look forward to hearing more thoughts on this.

[Endeavor]

My two cents; I saw a few years back N.O.S. CWC, 1989 issued military quartz watches. Swizz ETA 955.114 movement. They had the full military code stamped in the back, new, unscratched and in immaculate condition. I couldn't resist and bought a couple. I wear one, the others in the drawer to gain years and value........ (They doubled in price already). As Will says, military watches keep their value........ I hope......

Edited February 20, 2016 by Endeavor

[BeyondWorld]

I've been a watch dealer for around 13 years.

 

Asking what's a good investment and what watches will go up in price is a redundant question really, because in all honesty if I knew myself I'd be hoarding it all up, and same goes for anyone else who deals in watches. It's completely a unpredictable market and watches do go up and down in price.

 

I'll try to give some good advice though to someone on a budget.

 

Ebay and auctions I suggest avoiding, sellers aren't honest and you have the competition of the whole world, anything good another person will snap up before you and what is worth buying in my experience has a 70% chance they need some good work done to them to get them working in a correct state. I have made some money from buying off ebay, but this is only due to know exactly what I am buying and the experience of selling the same watches previously.

 

In the market or trade buying watches is tricky too, I value people who have a good reputation. Avoid people who are hard sellers, there's a reason they are trying to push on a watch on you, it's because they are stuck with it.

 

Anyone who is fairly reserved, know that watches sell themselves and the right person will come to buy from them.

 

As for $50 - $200 range, very very tricky. If you started 10 years ago, I'd say absolutely yes, you can buy something amazing for that price, in omega, longines, zenith, movado, jaeger lecoultre. This was a time when people were purely buying watches because they loved watches. Now the crowd is slightly different and buying purely because they have seen watches go up in price, websites like hoodinkee have started promoting them up as a trendy thing to do as a hobby. While the high end market is now controlled and have rings or people controlling the price, as they know they can buy them out and ask what any price they want, as they have the money to do this.

 

I think I'd recommend these brands, as really good quality watches for fair prices:-

 

1940's - 1960's

Longines - Just about possible to buy in your top end price range.

Zenith  - a bit more easier to buy in your top price range.

Movado  - Same as above two, but a bit more easier to buy.

Smiths - These have a following and can be bought for around £50 - £150 in steel and sometimes gold (But maybe these are more of a british market) avoid anything that is under 15 jewels. They are very good value for money and have a possible future of going up in price.

 

Good quality bargains but hard to say if any chance of going up in price:-

 

All around the £100 for the amazing and alot less for the ordinary:-

 

1940's - 1960's

Cyma 

Rotary

Record

 

And these brands are steady rising and what you should aim for, but will be out of your price range.

 

Rolex

Iwc

Omega

Jaeger lecoultre

 

I think a good rule of buying, is really just to buy what you like.

 

You really shouldn't be buying watches to impress other people, I just consider this a really bad reason to buy, I've seen people do this with someone who says they like some watch and then the other person buys one because of that, and I'm like thinking you didn't even know what it was until someone else wanted it.

 

As a dealer I check 3 things.

 

First the dial, to see if it's original. Purely for resale value it will matter if the dial is original and clear.

 

I have nothing against restored dials, because you are basically buying something with an expiration date anyway, but somewhat harder to sell.

 

For patina dialed watches, it's purely personal taste, for the normal watch though I'd prefer to buy a restored dial watch than a spotty, scratched or blemish marked dial, they are unsellable like that, unless it's something quite rare. 

 

Secondly the movement.

 

Got to check that everything is working. (Normally it isn't though, so expect to pay some money for servicing, you can't really tell until you get home with it.)

 

And finally the case, check to see if it's been over polished or has any serious damage. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by BeyondWorld

[WillFly]

Good stuff there - thanks for posting this excellent advice. I would take issue only with your opening statement about avoiding eBay and auctions. I don't believe the majority of sellers are dishonest, though some undoubtedly are. I've sold a number of watches myself over the years, and have been scrupulously exact in my  descriptions. Some eBay sellers are ignorant of what they are selling - as are some auction houses. I've bought the majority of my  60+ watches from eBay and, with one exception, all the transactions have been straightforward and as advertised. I should add that I've scoured eBay for years and got to know what to look for and what to avoid! And, of course, I've been able to put right any minor faults in purchases for next to nothing. It IS possible to snap up the bargains if you're on the ball. I've used a sniping service, and very effective it can be.

 

Some auction houses really don't know what they're selling - which can be an advantage. I bought my beautiful Ball-Waltham 1903 RR grade pocket watch online from one house that didn't have a clue what it had. Good auction houses will refund any purchased items if the description has been inaccurate - and I've always asked for a proper condition report before bidding. The disadvantage of auctions - particularly online - is the buyer's fee, anything from 15% to 22%, plus 3% for using the online service, plus p&p. At least there's only postage to pay with eBay, and some sellers give free p&p.

 

Buying from anywhere always involves that useful Latin phrase Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware. So: Do your research, keep an eye on the marketplace to see what goes for what. Always get a picture of the movement - not just the dial and case. Don't be swayed by brand names and go for what you really like.

 

Forgot to say: Some eBay sellers also have shops, and it's worth going straight to the shop from eBay to discuss a potential purchase - that's how I got my lovely LeCoultre, from a good guy who lives about half an hour away from me.

[BeyondWorld]

Yeah, I can understand why you'd take issue with my ebay statement, for the most part, there are a lot of honest sellers. 

 

Auctions are definitely buyer beware though, so that's why I give warning for a newcomer to watches to buy from there.

 

It's mainly due to sellers not knowing what they are selling, so I agree it's about knowing what you are buying.

 

The large amount of watches sold by retailers often don't state if the dial is original or not, or sometimes it's well hidden or very sneakily cryptically stated. Also the prices are ludicrously high, 300% more most times, and I do think this is taking advantage of a person who don't know what a watch is worth.

 

While other times there are people who take blurred pictures, and it's quite hard to see what's what. (A few times deliberately, wrong case back, or some sort of damage, or dial in bad state)

 

Auction houses are the worst for me, in this month I've bought 4 watches from non specialised auction houses and 3 of them had broken or parts missing, I kinda see these places as dealers putting problem watches into them.

[stroppy]

Great information, BeyondWorld.  As a dealer you have insights into the trade from the other side of the counter.  It's not easy being a buyer in these days of online auctions, Frankewatches, etc...  Sometimes you are better off just going through a reputable dealer and have done with it.  You have backup, advice and service that way.

[BeyondWorld]

This is my ebay buying experience this month:-

 

Omega - Perfect

 

Rolex - Need servicing. (Not stated)

 

Omega - case damage. (Not stated or shown)

 

Rolex - short stem, missing crown. (Stated)

 

Omega - broken screw in setting lever needs servicing (Not stated or shown)

 

Omega - need servicing. (Stated)

 

Longines - Perfect

 

Military watch - Need servicing. (Not stated)

 

Diamond rolex ladies - dial damaged. (Stated)

 

Military watch - needs servicing, wrong stem. (Advertised as perfect and serviced, so complete lie)

 

Military watch - missing crown needs servicing (Stated)

 

rolex - needs servicing. (Not stated.)

 

 

 

 

So only two are completely perfect.

 

Four need work but sellers were honest about it.

 

Four left the facts out on what needs to be done or didn't know about it.

 

and two I consider to be dishonest, by saying watch has been serviced and the one not showing the case damage.

 

They all were still good buys and will earn me a profit once repaired correctly, apart from the omega with case damage.

Edited February 23, 2016 by BeyondWorld

[WileyDave]

Great topic, since I do admit to spending what some would consider obsessive amount of time searching the bay and here in the US the 'goodwill' auction site for unusual but not necessarily rare watches. The only reason I have had any success is by researching what I'm considering to purchase. Items I look at: complete watch with nothing missing, case, dial, hands, bracelet/strap, +condition, first question, is it all original?? second question, what do I need to do to restore/repair?

Example: years back I won ebay auction on lot of watches,(~$44) one turned out to be Longines, 25j auto, 994.1 cal, it was not without issues, broken stem, not running, turns out I had to find complete balance assm, found, $65 from India, stem was not problem, sent to watchmaker in state, add $25 for stem/balance install and shipping, (it was clean and running so no charge was needed), add $45 for NOS Longines strap and there you have it for less than $200. Is it worth more than 200? In my mind, obviously yes, it's last of the thin Longines and I could resell for twice, (if lucky!) But I went through all the effort and almost a year in time because I now have a timepiece that not too many own.

Do your homework and the test will be easy, but like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get, (until it's in your hands)

[ausimax]

A lot of good advice, though in my case not always useful, my hobby is restoring watches to working condition, so I look for non working watches for as little cost as possible and try to repair them, some work out OK others end up as spare parts, saying that I have by default become a reluctant watch collector, as a result of my hobby I now have a collection of more than 60 watches of little real value being in the main mostly common models and mainly Seiko.

 

Max

[mcass]

Well scrolling through eBay the other I came across a watch that I knew I had to have the second I saw it. One has never hit me quite like seeing that one did. I have never quite seen one like it as far as it's face design. I won the auction, dropped about $30.00 on it and can not wait for it to show up. Im sure it's nothing special and probably nothing rare about it but I am excited anyway. It is a Russian Karja (of which I know ansolutely nothing about) mechanical watch. When I het it I'll post pics and would be very interested if anyone can tell me more about it. It has a seconds dial over the 9 spot and a date window in the 6 spot. Black face with white and silver numerals and red hands. SO COOL! (I love red hands).

[mcass]

[stroppy]

Very nice!  What's the number/type of the movement?

[mcass]

I'm not really sure. I have gotten it yet but that was the picture posted on eBay when I bought it. The seller indicated that it measure approximately 38MM. Also included a link to a video of the movement at https://youtu.be/x6piUjB_v3E . I dont see any writing on the movement itself.