New balance staff not riveting to balance

[nevenbekriev]

Not long ago there was a discussion about a tool for grinding the bottom part of the staff togrther with the hub

This is on the same principle as @Delgetti uses with His method.

This tool is  usefull specially for those who don't have or use lathe. I have seen similar self made tools in the russian forum and will try to give link here if manage to find the thread.

Here is link with images of one

http://forum.watch.ru/showpost.php?p=2410366&postcount=10

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Not long ago there was a discussion about a tool for grinding the bottom part of the staff togrther with the hub

This is on the same principle as @Delgetti uses with His method.

This tool is  usefull specially for those who don't have or use lathe. I have seen similar self made tools in the russian forum and will try to give link here if manage to find the thread.

Here is link with images of one

http://forum.watch.ru/showpost.php?p=2410366&postcount=10

The Molfres tool,  DAMN i wish i had bought it

24 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Not long ago there was a discussion about a tool for grinding the bottom part of the staff togrther with the hub

This is on the same principle as @Delgetti uses with His method.

This tool is  usefull specially for those who don't have or use lathe. I have seen similar self made tools in the russian forum and will try to give link here if manage to find the thread.

Here is link with images 

27 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Not long ago there was a discussion about a tool for grinding the bottom part of the staff togrther with the hub

This is on the same principle as @Delgetti uses with His method.

This tool is  usefull specially for those who don't have or use lathe. I have seen similar self made tools in the russian forum and will try to give link here if manage to find the thread.

Here is link with images of one

http://forum.watch.ru/showpost.php?p=2410366&postcount=10

 

Why do the staff cutter people go for the hub?  So not to damage the top of the wheel ?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Never saw or heard about that before. What is it called? Can it be picked up somewhere?

I wouldn't feel bad about not knowing what this tool is I had two of them in my staking set. Occasionally our local watch group would have meetings of mystery tools bring your mystery tools. As watchmakers have a habit of accumulating tools beyond watch repair. Nobody knew what my mystery tools were? The staking set I had came from a company that refinished dials we wondered if it was something to do with that?

that I'm not sure we've covered all the methods of removing staffs. Scroll down the page at the link below the Kirk's safety balance staff remover. something different also demonstrating the innovative nature of watchmakers so many ways to do something or perhaps so many tools to sell to watchmakers.
 

 

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/BalanceStaffRemovers.html

 

[nevenbekriev]

47 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Why do the staff cutter people go for the hub?  So not to damage the top of the wheel ?

This was said several times here - it is not possible to cut the rivet fully without touching the arm, and even when rivet is cut, still remains spreaded part of the seat that is not able to be cut. I am not sure how clean I explain, but see the rivet on this picture and try to choose a line where the rivet must be cut and will see what i mean.

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Marc said:

There's one here if any one is looking for one. (Not mine by the way :-))

Anyone who can tell the diameter? @Neverenoughwatches?

[Klassiker]

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Anyone who can tell the diameter?

4.7mm like a standard stake.

[praezis]

@Nev:
sure I have an UnruhMax (Unruh=balance wheel). I threw it in the backmost corner of a drawer after my first totally damaged spoke/hole (some decades ago)!
Repeat it 100 1st or so times: No tool, if Platax, Unruhmax, etc can support the area around the hole when punching the staff out.
For doubters I can show the picture again .

And I have a question to all hole punchers for closing: where do you punch?
- on the hub side and spoil the flat seat, rivet side still too wide?
- on the rivet side and produce a groove where the rivet should grip? Then say good bye to ever get a tight rivet with this wheel…

Frank

 

 

Edited March 7 by praezis

[Jon]

They are a good tool for removing a balance staff. Better than using just a stake, as the balance arms are held firmly in place at the same time the spring loaded part does its job

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/6/2024 at 5:44 PM, VWatchie said:

I really can't figure out how you will be able to avoid having the stake follow through and into the hole (no matter how lightly you tap

I can't remember the last time I followed through, probably when i did a really strong curry a few months ago . Its just control watchie and its not the slightest bit difficult. I keep pressure on the stake between my index finger and thumb and both are pressed tight on top of the guide. The stake isn't going anywhere i dont want it to, a couple of sharp taps and the staff is free, i watch close with a x10 loupe, very easy.

5 hours ago, Jon said:

They are a good tool for removing a balance staff. Better than using just a stake, as the balance arms are held firmly in place at the same time the spring loaded part does its job

Better than a punch on it's own but I'd still rather learn to cut out the staff, will only carbide cut, ive read about a way to anneal the staff.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/6/2024 at 2:12 PM, Delgetti said:

I don‘t have to do this task (replace balance staff) often, maybe one time in a year. As I ruined a Valjoux 72 balance wheel by pushing the staff out without any work on the staff before, I became a fan of the „grind the hub away“ method. So here is a description of my amateur without lathe setup. 
 

I put the balance in a vice, hub side up. I use my micromot with a ball grinding attachment. Then I grind the staff away freehand until the rest of the hub is maybe 0.5 mm.

Then I put the micromot in a stand and adjust the height roughly. Now I grind away the hub step by step by putting sheets of paper (0.05 mm thickness) under the vice. Stand and vice have to be placed on a very flat table of course. When the hub is grinded down to about 0.05 - 0.1 mm you can punch it out in the staking set (correct support from the downside!), the thin rest of the hub will just break off, no damage to the hole, as many others already mentioned. As always you should first try this with a balance from the scrap box.

 

I have the same drill in 240v and that stand, very useful but no micrometer adjustment. For just a little more money the proxon mf70 mill can do this operation,   is cheaper than a platax or a lathe, and has lots of other uses besides . 

[Delgetti]

Bonus track:

Found two pictures after punching out the staff. The rest of the hub breaks off at a very small diameter, definitely smaller than the hole in the balance.

 

[arron]

On 3/5/2024 at 12:13 PM, nevenbekriev said:

What to do now? Do not use moment glue. Do not use shellac. I know that many wil not agree with me here, but I will advise to solder the staff to the balance arm. Use good flux, small quantity of led containing sloder and if the flux is acid containing, use alcaline solution to quickly wash the flux remains after soldering.

Update: After giving up hope that I could get the staff riveted to the balance, I got to musing over the above advice.  I decided to just play around with different methods of attaching the staff using a junker staff and balance.  I used liquid shellac first and I thought it held moderately well initially, but then with a bit of wiggling from my tweezers, the joint failed.  I then tried the solder.  Oh what a big blob of mess that made.  I could see, however, how a skilled jeweler could make that work quite well.  Finally, I tried CA glue (super glue).  It took two tries but ultimately it turned out quite well.  I got the watch back together and it's still running.  I realize this is just a temporary fix, and is probably considered blasphemy by the real watchmakers here (i don't include myself under that esteemed label), but it's super cool to see and hear this 19th century timepiece chugging along again.  It's nice to have an occasional small victory to offset the frustrations with this hobby.   

PS I appreciate everyone's kind advice.  I do think that next time I am going to give my lathe its maiden voyage and try cutting off the hub to remove the staff.  That seems like it's do-able for a novice, whereas making my own staff seems daunting at this stage of the game.  

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, arron said:

After giving up hope that I could get the staff riveted to the balance

one of the problems with multipage discussions is that it makes it hard to go back and reread everything so let's review the process? Did you measure the old staff and the new staff to verify that they're the exact same size? Then riveting despite the fact all the images show one round punch I usually use several of them. In other words I will start with the smallest one I can get start two spread the rivet then I'll do another one slightly larger to keep spreading the rivet or basically whatever it takes. Followed up with a flat punch to just flatten the whole thing out hopefully. The last watch I did didn't flatten out as well as I liked but is held nice and tight so worked fine. actually ended up with a small pile of staking set punches on the bench when doing it despite the fact the photos only show one magical punch I seldom find that works the way it shows in the picture.

1 hour ago, arron said:

I then tried the solder. 

interesting method not sure I've ever seen it in any book and you really don't one of even begin to grasp what anyone understanding watch repair would think about this method. So if you solder a balance staff PN in a future watchmaker has to replace it is that going to be an issue?

1 hour ago, arron said:

my lathe

if you have a lathe visually the look really nice to impress your friends but they do have purposes in watch repair. Then why don't you start practicing with it and some scrap balance wheels I know hobbyist never practice it takes away the fun but still find some scrap balance wheels look on eBay practice cutting the hubs off see if you like that method. Personally I never did but to each his own. then find some metal start turning it on the lathe maybe make a balance staff a really big balance staff. Watch repair is all about practicing.

[VWatchie]

On 3/6/2024 at 6:20 PM, Jon said:

I'm going to do a video (not like there aren't many showing this) to show how to perform both methods of removing a balance staff by cutting the hub and using a staking tool. My website/SEO guy is always on at me to add more content to my YouTube channel, so this will get him off my back for a while and maybe give me impetus to post more techniques  

Don't forget about the video Jon. No hurry, just a friendly reminder! Your content is always appreciated 

I guess you'll publish it here!?

https://www.youtube.com/@jonthewatch3640/videos

[CYCLOPS]

I thought I would show this K&D punch for staff removal, this one is for Bracelet staffs, there is one for Pockets also....

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

this one is for Bracelet staffs

Interesting! Never saw it before so thanks for sharing! Now, what is a "bracelet staff"?

[RichardHarris123]

14 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Interesting! Never saw it before so thanks for sharing! Now, what is a "bracelet staff"?

I'm assuming, bracelet staff is a wrist watch but I could be wrong .

[CYCLOPS]

VWatchie, RichardHarris is correct, you wear bracelet watches on your arm [smaller movements], pockets watches, timers etc. is what the other punch would be suited for....

[VWatchie]

51 minutes ago, CYCLOPS said:

VWatchie, RichardHarris is correct, you wear bracelet watches on your arm [smaller movements], pockets watches, timers etc. is what the other punch would be suited for....

Thanks! I never heard the expression before but it makes sense. Looking at the pictures again it says "braclet" (misspelled).

Edited April 8 by VWatchie

[praezis]

18 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

I thought I would show this K&D punch for staff removal, this one is for Bracelet staffs, there is one for Pockets also....

This is the same tool as the already mentioned "Unruh-Max", just different head.

Not forget to mention: It does not protect the hole from deformation, same as simple punching.

Frank

 

Edited April 8 by praezis

[Poljot]

20 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

I thought I would show this K&D punch for staff removal, this one is for Bracelet staffs, there is one for Pockets also....

 

I am not used to this terminology: "Bracelet staffs" / "Pockets staffs".

Perhaps: Balance Staffs for Wrist Watches, or Balance Staffs for Pocket Watches would be more accurate?

From "K&D Staking Tools and how to use them" catalogue: "Balance Staff Removers for Pocket Watches and Bracelet Watches"

The Punch shown above does NOT save the Balance Staff pivot.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Poljot said:

I am not used to this terminology: "Bracelet staffs" / "Pockets staffs".

Perhaps: Balance Staffs for Wrist Watches, or Balance Staffs for Pocket Watches would be more accurate?

technically they're all a balance staff that comes in a variety of sizes. Other than the size I don't think there's normally a difference in these staffs. So might be better defined the staff by watch size rather than a terminology of this watch is tiny for instance. but then there is the other minor issue of terminology.

terminology in watch repair is interesting in that depending upon location there will be a different term for some of components. Then time also changes things as terminology even in locations has changed over time.

So for instance a balance staff for an American pocket watch should be defined as a 18 size staff number something for an Elgin pocket watch for instance. With 18 size being a important factor versus the Swiss size definition of ligne.

or there is the other thing like watchmakers are enthusiastic to embrace other people's tools that's why we have ligne as a measurement as I think it came from somewhere else. Or mainsprings they can come in a variety of measurements including millimeter, inches and Dennison all on the same package sometimes. Watchmakers definitely like their terminology of being confusing.

Out of curiosity I looked up one of the other tools and sure enough at the bottom is bracelet. but they really do think some size definition with a number would be much better as I have actually be honest no idea what size that is other than I think of it as small but seeing as how everything and watch repair is small that doesn't really make for a good definition.

[VWatchie]

On 4/8/2024 at 12:17 PM, praezis said:

It does not protect the hole from deformation, same as simple punching.

It does protect the hole from deformation! If you punch it out in a staking set the stake will (most likely) follow through and damage the hole. Not so the Platax and similar tools. However, a Platax tool may still damage the hole depending on how hard the rivet is. I wouldn't use the Platax on a really expensive watch, but for all normal mass-produced movements - which make up 100 % of the movements I'm working on - I have no qualms.

[praezis]

 Everyone is allowed believe what he likes to...

Frank

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, praezis said:

 Everyone is allowed believe what he likes to...

Frank

There's no need to be condescending Frank. All I am trying to convey is that there is no risk of the stake reaching the hole in the balance when using a Platax tool.