New balance staff not riveting to balance

[arron]

Hi Guys,

I cannot get the new balance staff riveted to the balance.  I've tried the smallest domed punch that will fit over the balance and then i tried several slightly larger punches.  I tried light taps and moderately hard taps, but the balance is still very loose on the staff.  The replacement is identical to the one I removed.  The attached picture of the staff and balance are after trying to rivet.   The other picture shows one of the domed punches; I've seen pictures of other punches that seem to have a taller dome--not sure if that makes a difference.  I have used this staking set to replace two or three other balances so it should work.  The staking set in a FR Inverting Set.  Any suggestions on what I need to do are appreciated.  Thanks.  PS, after hearing John whisper in my ear  ;  I'm working on an Elgin 18s Gr 75 PW.  Serial 3712899.

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, arron said:

I've tried the smallest domed punch that will fit over the balance

Where exactly does your punch fit? Has it left any marks?

[nevenbekriev]

My english is not good enough to understand the meaning of

3 hours ago, arron said:

 I've tried the smallest domed punch that will fit over the balance and then i tried several slightly larger punches.

Yes I know all the worsd, but I can't still get the meaning. I suspect You do not what is needed, and what is needed is to use a punch wit hole in which will go the hairspring seat (with minimal free play), but the rivet will not go. So, the punch should never touch the balance spoke with the hole, but just the 'rivet' of the staff. And, I don't see on the picture signs of riveting on the staff, nider i see signs of punch on the balance spoke, so I wonder if You understanding of 'moderately harder taps' is close to mine.

Then, please watch this video.

It shows one of the correct ways of old balance staff removing from the balance in a manner that will not enlarge and distort the hole. Simply punching out the staff is wrong as the hole gets larger and every next riveting of new staff will need more and more harder hammering, and this leads to loosing of balance center and roundness. If You watch just the end of this video,

You will see the awfull result this guy proudly shows instead of being ashamed of what He has done...

So, when the balance hole has get larger, this means that normal staff wil not fit, but one will need to make custom staff to fit the hole.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, arron said:

Hi Guys,

I cannot get the new balance staff riveted to the balance.  I've tried the smallest domed punch that will fit over the balance and then i tried several slightly larger punches.  I tried light taps and moderately hard taps, but the balance is still very loose on the staff.  The replacement is identical to the one I removed.  The attached picture of the staff and balance are after trying to rivet.   The other picture shows one of the domed punches; I've seen pictures of other punches that seem to have a taller dome--not sure if that makes a difference.  I have used this staking set to replace two or three other balances so it should work.  The staking set in a FR Inverting Set.  Any suggestions on what I need to do are appreciated.  Thanks.  PS, after hearing John whisper in my ear  ;  I'm working on an Elgin 18s Gr 75 PW.  Serial 3712899.

Couple of things to look at arron. How big was the hole in the balance wheel to start with. A sloppy fit of the staff and the rivet may not have enough of the wheel to grip hold of, more important it could end up being off center.  And the domed punch is to flare out the rivet in order for it to be flattened down onto the wheell by a flat punch afterwards. Two punches are involved in the process of riveting. 

[Klassiker]

26 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

this guy

is our generous host. Not saying that puts him above criticism, but just bear that in mind.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

is our generous host. Not saying that puts him above criticism, but just bear that in mind.

I did gringe when i read that "ouch" and not the most delicate expression of criticism. I don't think Nev quitehas the right words in his head and obviously doesn't realise who mark is. Oopsie..

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You will see the awfull result this guy proudly shows instead of being ashamed of what He has done...

I wonder what there is to be "ashamed" about? What is it that he is doing wrong? Let us know and perhaps we can learn something.

[tomh207]

I think there maybe a perception issue around Marks video for @nevenbekriev , Mark targets videos towards us who are trying to learn about it all and would find the idea never mind the expense of one a lathe for best current practice to be out of reach. To this end I suspect that the staking set method of driving out the balance staff is actually a well accepted practice for professional watchmakers , although perhaps not the best.

Having spent a lot of my life teaching people how to do my job and creating best practice on a per customer basis I maybe understand more how this misunderstanding could come about. I truly believe both nev and Mark have our best interests at heart and only want us to improve as we go and become the best watchfiddlers we can be.

 

my tuppence

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I wonder what there is to be "ashamed" about? What is it that he is doing wrong? Let us know and perhaps we can learn something.

I think Nev is referring to the way mark removed the damaged staff. Without watching the video again i think mark even commented that punching out the old could distort the wheel hole. Multiple staff swaps might eventually enlarge the hole. Guess it depends what the wheel is made from.

[nickelsilver]

In school we were shown the punching out method, using a K&D tool that presses down on the balance arms to keep things flat (as the Platax tool does), but were told the proper technique was cutting away the hub. They showed us the punch method simply because many professional watchmakers only ever do it that way. On a Glucydur balance, which is heat treated beryllium copper and very hard, there is less risk of enlarging the hole; likewise with steel balance arms. But not all bimetallic balances are heat treated, and many monometallic balances are made of nickel, and these will almost certainly see their holes enlarged from punching.

 

I don't do much Rolex work, but I understand that on the modern pieces they instruct to press the staff out with a Horia tool. As I heard the staff is designed in a way that the rivet breaks away during this process. I wouldn't try it on anything else!

[eccentric59]

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

... the proper technique was cutting away the hub. They showed us the punch method simply because many professional watchmakers only ever do it that way.

From a practical perspective, how many times will a staff need to be replaced on any balance in a watches' lifetime? If the answer is greater than 2, and replacement balances are not available AND the movement is worth repairing, then I could see the argument for cutting away the rivet rather than punching it out.

[tomh207]

6 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

From a practical perspective, how many times will a staff need to be replaced on any balance in a watches' lifetime? If the answer is greater than 2, and replacement balances are not available AND the movement is worth repairing, then I could see the argument for cutting away the rivet rather than punching it out.

Arguments could be made either way for either “best” or “most economical”  which I think would be more likely.

 

Tom

[JackH]

Is the staff rivet cut with a lathe (hand graver) or the hub? I have read about both as a procedure.    

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

From a practical perspective, how many times will a staff need to be replaced on any balance in a watches' lifetime? If the answer is greater than 2, and replacement balances are not available AND the movement is worth repairing, then I could see the argument for cutting away the rivet rather than punching it out.

That depends on how it's worn and whether it had shock protection or not; I do see broken or otherwise mangled pivots even on shock protected watches though.

48 minutes ago, JackH said:

Is the staff rivet cut with a lathe (hand graver) or the hub? I have read about both as a procedure.    

I suppose you could make a tool to use in the slide rest, but I was taught to do it by hand, and to take off the hub. As you cut away the hub, concentrating toward the center, when you get to the balance it falls off as a ring. In some cases the staff still needs a light tap to come out, in some the balance falls away too. Cutting the rivet sufficiently is very hard to do without also cutting the balance.

[arron]

I'm not smart enough to wade into the debate about the best method to remove the staff (I punched mine out using the K&D tool), but I did take some more photos to see if that will assist in determining where I go from here.  The first picture shows in between the two red lines a definite flat spot where the ridge of the rivet would be.  I looked at another new rivet and it shows a sharp ridge at the top of the rivet.  So I'm guessing that one of my domed punches pushed the sharp edge flat.  You can also see around the circumference of the rivet, there is some space between the staff and the balance (it's not as pronounced as the dark circle would suggest however).  So, as was suggested above, it appears that the hole is too wide for the rivet to grip.

So what would be your next move?  1) use more force to smash the rivet enough to grip the balance?  2) use a punch to reduce the size of the hole (if so which stake do I use?).  Or 3) something else?  Thanks guys.

[Jon]

50 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I suppose you could make a tool to use in the slide rest, but I was taught to do it by hand, and to take off the hub. As you cut away the hub, concentrating toward the center, when you get to the balance it falls off as a ring. In some cases the staff still needs a light tap to come out, in some the balance falls away too. Cutting the rivet sufficiently is very hard to do without also cutting the balance.

I concur with @nevenbekriev and @nickelsilver. It is a better and safer method to cut away the hub before removing the balance staff. The rivet can be cut back, but I find the hub is a better way to do it.

If someone decides to use a platax tool and knows there is a real risk of enlarging the hole in the balance arms, that seems a little foolish to me, regardless of who they are.

If you don't have a lathe, then I can see why punching the staff out is the only option

I knew of a client who he always asked a potential watchmaker who he wanted to do either repair or servicing of his watches, how they removed the balance staff from the balance, and if the watchmaker said they punched it out with a platax tool or similar, he would walk away and find someone who cut the hub or rivet first. There are obviously more than one way to skin a cat and watchmaking is a very subjective matter based on experience, but I'm sure that anyone who has the experience of cutting the hub off first before removing the staff will realise it is the better method, which is infinitely safer.

17 minutes ago, arron said:

So what would be your next move?  1) use more force to smash the rivet enough to grip the balance?  2) use a punch to reduce the size of the hole (if so which stake do I use?).  Or 3) something else?  Thanks guys.

I would try closing up the hole, because if there is a gap the rivet isn't going to alleviate that. You can use a domed stake on both sides if you have an inverto staking tool, but make sure the domed stakes are the correct size, so when the work is gripped between the stakes, the work doesn't turn and the stakes don't touch each other. Be incredibly light with the hammer!

Once the staff is fitted, because you have closed the hole, you may find the staff might not be true to the balance, but you would put it in calipers anyway to true it up so it spun without a wobble

Edited March 5 by Jon

[arron]

Thanks Jon.  Can I still use the staff I have or do I need to buy another one that doesn't have the rivet ridge flattened already?

[Jon]

8 minutes ago, arron said:

Thanks Jon.  Can I still use the staff I have or do I need to buy another one that doesn't have the rivet ridge flattened already?

The rivet really needs to be proud of the top of the balance arms, so if the rivet has been flattened too much then it won't be able to do its job. have a look at the pic I've attached and if the rivet has been flattened too much it won't work as a rivet or grip the balance arms how it should. Inspect the balance staff under high magnification and you see if it still has that back-cut to the rivet or not. I'm guessing that the rivet has been flattened a little too much in trying to get it to grip, but I could be wrong

[arron]

That's extremely helpful.  thanks and have a great day.

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i think mark even commented that punching out the old could distort the wheel hole

I watched the entire video again and I can't recall him mentioning that, but he does state that the Platax "breaks the rivet without damaging the balance wheel". Also, I think it is worth noting that there is a significant difference between punching out a staff using a staking set and using a Platax tool. When using a Platax there's zero risk that the punch reaches down to the hole in the balance as the punch is hindered from reaching that far. It is the very idea behind the Platax. I think the risk of enlarging the hole in the balance is minimal when using a Platax and no greater or even less than when riveting the new staff. Also, as I understand it, using a lathe to remove the rivet isn't foolproof either.

[Jon]

13 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

there is a significant difference between punching out a staff using a staking set and using a Platax tool. When using a Platax there's zero risk that the punch reaches down to the hole in the balance as the punch is hindered from reaching that far.

It's no difference using a platex tool or any other method to perform the same task. The risk comes from the rivet being forced through the hole in the balance arms and potentially opening up the hole and not the tool itself. You're correct that removing the rivet or hub when in a lathe isn't fool proof, just as any operation in watchmaking, but from personal experience it is a lot safer than just forcing a balance through the hole of the balance arms. When you perform this task using both methods, then you will more than likely favour cutting the hub off first, as this minimises the risk we are talking about. As I've already said, there are many ways to perform a task in watchmaking and I never want to dispute what works for someone. If it works, then carry on. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind to how someone should remove a balance. I've used both ways to do this and they both work, but it is safer to cut the hub or rivet first, as I have opened up the hole like the OP is experiencing now.

The one thing I love about this forum is we can discuss different ways to do things and learn from each other. From knowledge comes experience, which then leads to wisdom

16 minutes ago, arron said:

That's extremely helpful.  thanks and have a great day.

You're most welcome. I'm glad I could help

Edited March 5 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I was taught to do it by hand, and to take off the hub. As you cut away the hub, concentrating toward the center, when you get to the balance it falls off as a ring. In some cases the staff still needs a light tap to come out, in some the balance falls away too. Cutting the rivet sufficiently is very hard to do without also cutting the balance.

Taking away the hub ? Is this because if the wheel is caught with the graver on this side its less detrimental to the wheel compared to the rivet side ?

2 hours ago, arron said:

I looked at another new rivet and it shows a sharp ridge at the top of the rivet.  So I'm guessing that one of my domed punches pushed the sharp edge flat

Maybe a domed punch with a steeper angle to get inside the rivet's edge to start with, the stake should be pushing the rivet outwards first so it can be folded down onto the wheel 

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I watched the entire video again and I can't recall him mentioning that, but he does state that the Platax "breaks the rivet without damaging the balance wheel". Also, I think it is worth noting that there is a significant difference between punching out a staff using a staking set and using a Platax tool. When using a Platax there's zero risk that the punch reaches down to the hole in the balance as the punch is hindered from reaching that far. It is the very idea behind the Platax. I think the risk of enlarging the hole in the balance is minimal when using a Platax and no greater or even less than when riveting the new staff. Also, as I understand it, using a lathe to remove the rivet isn't foolproof either.

You're right watchie, i must have watched somewhere else it was mentioned.

[nevenbekriev]

OK, As all can guess, I didn't know that the guy from the video is Mark. Now I am sorry, but what is done is done.

Probably all have seen that my pen sometimes is sharper than needed, but that's me and I rather try to obtain beter expressiveness than meaning to offend somebody. But, i sometimes miss...

Now to the point - my opinion is that Platax tool is good for taking off the double roller, but should be not used for staff punching. Call me 'radical', but I have said in other forums, that if You have platax tool, make it a present to You enemy.

What i didn't like in the result in the video is that balance wobbles eccentricly to much. A Great Person (He is in beter place now) who I consider as my teasher once said that no wobble (both in plane and eccentrical) should be seen under 2,5X magnification when balance rotates. I always do my best to folow this.

Now to the OP:

See, closing a hole in a plate is to much different from closing of hole in balance arm. A hole in a big plate has many material around the hole and it helps to make the hole smaller as the material has no room where to spread araound so it has to go to the center. The balance arm is narrow and smashing it in the center usually just elongates the arm itself and makes it bend as elongation is different on the both narrowest places where the hole is. And, the hole as a result doesn't want to get smaller at all, but instead of it, the balance deforms badly and forever. So, my advice is not to try to close the hole.

The best way to solve the problem is to make custom staff, and if the hole is not in balance center, to center the balance and turn the hole on lathe (this is not for compensation balances).  But, I see that in You case this is not possible...

What to do now? Do not use moment glue. Do not use shellac. I know that many wil not agree with me here, but I will advise to solder the staff to the balance arm. Use good flux, small quantity of led containing sloder and if the flux is acid containing, use alcaline solution to quickly wash the flux remains after soldering.

Edited March 5 by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, arron said:

I'm not smart enough to wade into the debate about the best method to remove the staff (I punched mine out using the K&D tool),

yes one of the problems with the group is it can't stay on track and were going to discuss all the theoretical first which I'm going to do to because everyone else does it and then we'll get back to the problem of your watch.

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

don't do much Rolex work, but I understand that on the modern pieces they instruct to press the staff out with a Horia tool. As I heard the staff is designed in a way that the rivet breaks away during this process. I wouldn't try it on anything else!

one of the things I like locally as we have the remnants of well at one time it was in AWCI chapter but we left them and still are functioning. One of the people who's given a lot of lectures was the head watchmaker of the service center for chain of jewelry stores it has stores all up and down the West Coast and a few other places. So he would comment share the knowledge from people like Rolex. So Jeff demonstrated a particular Rolex that we found or I found quite fascinating. The particular Rolex you could not remove the hairspring there was no way to get it all. He remove the roller table by using a lathe and holding onto the roller table and just rotating the balance of removing up that way it was the easiest way. Otherwise he may have used razor blades or something to get the table off don't quite remember because that's not what I was impressed with.

So how to get the hairspring off the Rolex how to get the staff out easy it's designed very specifically designed exactly what I quoted above.using the Horia tool and all the special bits and pieces that came in a really nice wooden box and probably cost a small fortune. And asking everybody to be really quiet in the room he started pressing and then the rivet sheers off with a pleasant pop. Then he picked up the rivet part that popped off and walked around the room and showed us there is a beautiful ring were the rivet just sheared right off because it's designed to do that with the only way that you can remove the staff is that as the staff has to be pushed out of the hairspring collet it's designed to work this way.

then here's a snippet from a AWCI magazine from 2014 and how exactly are they removing the staff

here's something that Rolex has

 

12 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Simply punching out the staff is wrong as the hole gets larger and every next riveting of new staff will need more and more harder hammering, and this leads to loosing of balance center and roundness. If You watch just the end of this video,

so punching out is the work of the devil but yet Rolex and AWCI says pushing out is there a difference or is there something else going on that were not paying attention to?

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

In school we were shown the punching out method, using a K&D tool that presses down on the balance arms to keep things flat (as the Platax tool does), but were told the proper technique was cutting away the hub. They showed us the punch method simply because many professional watchmakers only ever do it that way. On a Glucydur balance, which is heat treated beryllium copper and very hard, there is less risk of enlarging the hole; likewise with steel balance arms. But not all bimetallic balances are heat treated, and many monometallic balances are made of nickel, and these will almost certainly see their holes enlarged from punching.

I always find the term in school interesting? the reason for this is schools can vary depending upon the instructor if you start gathering up people to specific schools and asked specific questions he begin the wonder if you even went to the same school at all because of various instructors how people were taught etc. etc.

so for instance my first school the instructor liked to weaken the rivet as he called it. Balance staff in the latest that he would just take a little whiff of metal off and then using either the two methods quoted above knock the staff. Then later on in the other school we had this really nifty tool that just ground the hub off in the staff fell out which worked perfect providing it was set correctly for the particular size watches we were all doing.

Then this discussion has occurred somewhere else in the universe remember the person Jeff I mentioned he was annoyed with the discussion somewhere else in the universe and get a lecture for us. So in his particular lecture he totally watch that he had been at whole bunch of balance staffs for and I think he staff did at least 10 times and drove the staff out every single time with no problems at all done. So what does this demonstrate?

Now to understand better we have to go back to a previous lecture yes Jeff is given lots and lots of lectures. In a previous lecture Jeff and Doug gave a staffing lecture on Jeff did modern watches and Doug did pocket watches. Too long ago to remember the exact details of everything but the general consensus was you can not the staff out as long as it's not in super tight. in other words with a rivet is over the arms or something else is going on and tapping is not going to take it out you're going to have to cut things or something else? One of the lectures I think the last one especially if it's the beryllium copper balance wheels or brass you just remove your hairspring roller table and then use alum and dissolve the staff out after all it's still in the rest of it's not it can be safely dissolved out.

now we're back to the interesting problem of balance staff? Do we have one procedure for everything across the board with no variations of course not that assumption would be extremely stupid which is the problem with some of this discussion. The Hamilton watch company the Elgin watch company and Rolex have all designed specific staffs that will break. They've specifically say in their literature you can knock the staff out Elgin even goes so far as to bring up the balance wheels themselves.

I'm attaching a PDF from the Hamilton watch company replacing a balance staff. it's an interesting handout explaining of that somebody skilled in replacing a balance staff shouldn't have an issue but those starting out or going to have issues which is why they have a handout. like everything else in watch repair requires practice and knowledge of what you're doing.

on the first page there is some cautions let me snip out the image because we get something really interesting that I've highlighted? notice the reference to the balance arm simplistically it has to be harder than the staff itself which would either be steel in this particular case which brings up the problem of watches with brass or soft balance wheels. The unfortunate problem of variations another major problem to watch repair one method doesn't necessarily work everywhere

now on the second page you are reading the second page are you not? Sometimes I think when I attach PDFs no one bothers to read them at all. They show weakening the rivet and gently tapping the staff put. Which means using any one of the tools for driving a staff out work just fine as the rivet should be weakened and it should come out.

then notice on pages 3 and 4 explain in detail about their new staff designed specifically to do what and explain how to put it in how it looks etc. and basically we end up with this picture the staff is designed to be driven out safely without problems.

 

while looking for the Elgin balance wheel issue here's something interesting if you're ever looked up watch patents I'm convinced that everything has been patented at least once every single aspect of everything which of course presents challenges for other companies at the time. Here's an interesting image the taxes interesting it basically says a multi-method assembly method with one aspect being used for disassembly or basically break the rivet when you knock your staff out

 

here's an Elgin patent as the  patent was granted obviously it has to be somehow different than the Hamilton yet achieves the same goal a way of disassembling your staff from the balance without destroying everything

Elgin was even so happy with their staff they had a handout with a talk about its wonderful features and how to use it identify it etc.

 

here's something important for Elgin their nifty new balance wheel which basically Hamilton has also pointed out if the balance wheel arms are harder than the staff itself you can drive the staff out.

 

now hopefully everybody grasps that everything is possible all the methods can work and all the methods can fail. There is no perfect method as usual and watch repair their lots of different ways to achieve the final goals and lots of ways to destroy the balance and everything else in the watch.

 

16 hours ago, arron said:

replacement is identical to the one I removed.

identical?

16 hours ago, arron said:

Elgin 18s Gr 75 PW.  Serial 3712899

let's repeat the steps of replacing a balance staff as we are now aware it's 100% identical it was made by the Elgin watch company with the correct dimensions and it's perfect and yet it doesn't work let's just review anyway? in the procedure especially on vintage always best to use a micrometer and measure the old staff and the replacement staff the dimensions have to exactly agree. It would also be nice if they agreed with whatever you perceive is supposed to go in this watch. Which is easy we only have one balance staff so says the pocket watch database how many mistakes could they have?

so as you can see only one balance staff one balance staff number and there's a note? This by the way is my favorite balance staff because how many balance staffs are there? All with the same part number of all of variations and for this discussion we can explore all of that because the balanced seat is 1.30 mm to all the staffs should work they just won't be the right staff but they should still rivet just fine.

in addition to the specifications above is the replace of balance staff actually made by Elgin or as an aftermarket and is the shape of the riveting shoulder the same as what the original had yes there can be other sizing variations

then in this entire discussion this is the only picture I see like this and we really need a slightly different angle to see what we need to see because this despite its curvature looks almost concave a little bit at the critical part and if not it's flat with the curvature and is that what is specified for doing a balance staff? Yes I see images above and they don't quite correspond do they?

then this is a interesting picture isn't it? I have to go and find another balance staff to look at but definitely you haven't push the rivet down at all and I don't know I just don't like the look of this.

 

 

 

Hamilton technical data number 129 replacement of broken balance staffs.pdf

[arron]

Hi John, hopefully these are better pics of the domed stake, along side a flat stake for comparison.  It is definitely domed but it's very shallow.  Do you think this is my problem?  Unfortunately all the domed stakes in my set are this shallow.  If you think this is going to be a problem with any future staff replacement I'll consider trying to find another set.  Like I mentioned, I have done a few other replacements, but maybe I got lucky with the staff/balance hole size differences on those.

It's hard to see in the picture of the staff in the balance, but under a scope I can definitely see that the rivet ridge is flat; I assume from my pounding.  

Thanks for the hamilton pamphlet, which i'm sure i'll be referring to going forward.