Platform escapement question

[Rixy]

I have just started on an Elliott mantel Westminster chime clock I picked up on Ebay. When I looked at the platform escapement, the balance wheel is very wobbly. Should this be or has something gone wrong? I am wondering if it is a broken balance staff (doesn't look broken though) or has the lower pivot hole worn? Or is the wobble normal?

Have included photos. Thanks in advance for your advice.

[RichardHarris123]

Definitely not normal, can you post photos of the balance staff pivots? 

[Rixy]

Hi Richard. I've done my best to get photos. The first two are the lower pivot. The second two are the upper pivot but it's hard to see because of the spring.

Here is a slightly better photo of the top pivot. It doesn't seem to have the very fine end that the lower one has.

[RichardHarris123]

What are these bits? You may have to unpin the hairspring to see the top pivot properly.  I don't know much about clocks but others on here do, hopefully they will assist soon.  @oldhippy.

[Rixy]

I think that's just a problem with the picture (maybe a relection or a speck of dust). I have had another close look and that pivot seems alright. Looking again at the upper one, I think that is where the damage is. Have never worked this closely on a balance before so need a lot of guidance. Not sure how to remove the spring. Thanks for your help this far Richard.

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

You may have to unpin the hairspring to see the top pivot properly. 

you do not have to unpin the hairspring but you do have to remove the balance wheel from the bridge which are going to have to do for cleaning purposes anyway. To remove the balance wheel there are two separate steps of getting it off the bridge.

first you need to loosen the hairspring stud screw. It's in the image below this will allow you to push the stud out but not yet and once it's out gently screw it back in again so doesn't fall out it's a pain to put them back in when they fall out

then you remove the balance bridge with wheel flip lid upside down because you need to release the hairspring between the regulator pin and boot. you can see a side view picture here of

understand better of how to free the hairspring up we can see a side view here notice I marked something that's basically a screwdriver slot. So with the bridge upside down you put a screwdriver in here gently turn 90° or just enough to free up the hairspring so I can slide out then you can gently flip the whole thing over and pushed the hairspring stud out and in the whole thing should be free of the balance bridge.

 

7 minutes ago, Rixy said:

Have never worked this closely on a balance before so need a lot of guidance.

here's something that would help out in addition to the help from the group. a PDF on servicing platform escapement's

Servicing a Platform.pdf

[RichardHarris123]

Oops, sorry I meant remove the hairspring not unpin it.  

[Rixy]

Thank you both. I am going to get a decent set of screwdrivers and a good magnifier before I go any further! Also going to be absolutely certain I know the names of the various parts so I don't get things mixed up.

[watchweasol]

Hi Rixy looks like the upper pivot is either worn or broken. Most likely the latter. As with any balance a little end shake and same side shake, any discernible wobble means trouble.

[oldhippy]

Seeing a balance in a platform at that funny angle. I would say the staff is broken or jewels or both. To be sure a photo of the complete balance unscrewed for the balance cock and showing both balance pivots.  

[Rixy]

Had closer look by eye (cannot get the camera to the same angle) and I think it is the pivot at the top of the staff that is broken. Have ordered a set of very small screwdrivers and a headband magnifier with LED lights from Cousins, also some fine tweezers. When they come I will be able to remove the spring stud and have better access to the staff.

Will post a photo later this week.

[Nucejoe]

20 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Oops, sorry I meant remove the hairspring not unpin it.  

You mean remove/ detach  the balance complete from the cock, not remove the hairspring. 

22 hours ago, Rixy said:

Here is a slightly better photo of the top pivot. It doesn't seem to have the very fine end that the lower one has.

So, you should dismantle the cock setting to check for possible  damage to the end stone caused by bad pivot end, also as John said to clean the jewels there.

 

[Rixy]

My small screwdrivers arrived and I removed the balance wheel from the cock. It seems clear that while one of the pivots is intact, the other end has no pivot at all. I suspect this is not going to be a straightforward repair! What do you suggest? The first photo is of the good end of the staff. The next few are of the broken end.

[oldhippy]

Needs a new balance staff. The hairsprings needs sorting out as well. Are you able to make one? You could look on ebay. You could get i touch with this person. 

Specialists in Elliott Clocks 14 Langdale Court Witney OX28 6FG

[Rixy]

I thought that would be what was needed. I cannot make a new staff (haven't got a lathe for a start). I'll get in touch with the people you suggest, see if they will carry out the repair. Thanks 

[MikeEll]

I can sort out hairsprings if you need.  I've been practising that for a while with some great results.  DM me if needed.

[Rixy]

Thanks Mike. I've asked the people in Oxfordshire for a quote about the staff. I'll let you know how I get on.

[Rixy]

The specialists in Witney only do whole clock restoration so it looks like I'll have to either find a new staff on ebay or make one. I Hope to join the horology classes in Epping in yhe autumn - maybe I'll wait until then and complete the repair under supervision (and with access to the proper tools).

[oldhippy]

You could send it to them to repair. 

[Rixy]

I have seen this on Ebay (see link at the end of this post). It looks the same as mine except mine has a small section cut out of the platform, about 5mm square (see photo). This would mean transferring the good balance wheel to the existing platform. The vendor wants £85 plus postage. Does that seem reasonable?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116095330187?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=aZDrGQg8SVq&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=vviqc_f1t1m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[watchweasol]

Hi Rixy as it happens I have been going through a similar process with a Russian submarine clock. Been battered and the staff was broken at both ends. Managed to source a spare and although they will fit any Russian sub clock I swapped the balance into the other escapement , it fitted ok and spun up with the blower but when fitted to the clock , no go. So returned to the status quo . And worked out I could move the escape wheel pinion guard for it to fit it now works but more to do.   Although they look the same they might not be exact and be an expensive  £85 spare.  Iwould try to get the old one re staffed.  I have some staffs for my clock on their way with the intention of repairing the old one .   I mention this as a guide but the descision is one only you can make    All the best and good luck.

Is the replacement off an Elliot and are the dimensions the same and remember the drop of the escapement pinion as re gardens the mesh with the contrate wheel

[Rixy]

Thanks WW, it is quite a pricey gamble. It is from an Elliott and looks like it should fit but if it doesn't I have an expensive spare part sitting in a drawer! I think I'll pack it away for now until I start the classes in September and see what they say there.

[oldhippy]

When it comes to replacing a platform. You need to know the size is the same, depth and length of the escape wheel  so it will mesh with the contrite wheel, how many teeth does the escape wheel have, are the holes on the platform in the same place for fixing. If you can get all these measurements from the seller and they are the same as what you have then go for it. It well certainly be cheaper then having a balance staff made.