Rust on screws

[MarkF]

I’m new to watchmaking and have been working with an ST36 movement. Yesterday I disassembled the movement and cleaned it in an ultrasonic cleaner. Not wanting to use solvents in my house, I put 3 jars in the cleaner - the first contained Dawn dishwashing soap in water, the next 2 just water. I left the components in each jar for 5 minutes, then on to the next for another 5 minutes. Finally I soaked them in 99.9% IPA for another 5 minutes before laying them on a lint free towel and drying them I. A warm oven for about ten minutes. 
 

Most of the parts look great now, but some of the screws and the pivots on the train wheels had some rust on them. Does anyone have any advice on how to avoid this (aside from the obvious of using non water based solvents next time)?  Also, is it okay to soak the components in CLR to remove the rust spots?

Thanks for your help, and happy to be here. 

[nevenbekriev]

Well, You are inventing You own cleaning technique. That is good, but don't ask the others what is wrong with it, as You are the inventor.

Now You have only surface rust developed to the parts. It can stil be removed from the pinions teeth by sharp wooden stick and polishing compaund (use oil solvable one and clean by brushing with pure petrol after).

All professional cleaning solutions are water based. The parts doesn't develop rust in the solution, but in water used for rinsing. No one rinses for 5 min, this is silly. Then imedatelly in pure alkohol to rinse the water, then blow with air and dry with hair dryer. Using oven for drying is silly too.

[oldhippy]

The concoctions members use on here in order to clean their watch movements. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, you only have yourself to blame. Use the proper cleaners and rinse that is what they are manufactured for. Read about them see what the pros say.  Watch parts are very fragile, you can’t just plonk them in any solution.

[Waggy]

14 hours ago, MarkF said:

some of the screws and the pivots on the train wheels had some rust on them.

Was the rust there before cleaning or only appeared after cleaning? I would find it strange if un-rusted parts began to rust after such a short exposure to water and then IPA/drying especially as the time the parts were wet and in air was so short.

If the parts were already rusty then the treatment you outlined above is unlikely to remove it. I would advise against CLR as it is a general cleaner mainly made up of acids (lactic acid and gluconic acid) which will indiscriminately attack the part (rust and good steel alike), not a problem on a garden fence, but on a delicate watch component this could cause more issues than it solves (the same goes for coke - which someone is bound to mention at some point in this thread). I would use a commercial cleaner specifically designed for rust eg evapo-rust or similar.

If the parts were not previously rusty, then I would follow the advice above from @oldhippy and move to non-water based dedicated cleaning products, actually I would follow this advice in either scenario. Again, a quick 5-20 min soak in dedicated rust removing solution should remove any staining caused by recent rust on the parts which have the problem now.

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

All professional cleaning solutions are water based.

Please see below from the L&R web site MSDS sheets, these professional cleaning products contain no water - maybe I misunderstood your comment?

L&R 111 cleaning solution

L&R #3 Rinse

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Was the rust there before cleaning or only appeared after cleaning? I would find it strange if un-rusted parts began to rust after such a short exposure to water and then IPA/drying especially as the time the parts were wet and in air was so short.

I've  had flash rusting occur very quickly, it seems to jump straight onto the smallest of areas. Exposure to air inbetween getting the part dunked in ipa has to be minimal. Weak concentration of ipa could be a cause. Its mega important to get warm airflow introduced quickly.  I just wont entertain any cleaning with anything water based, i think the process with it needs to be ideal for it to work. Its caught me out a few times to ever try it again.

[Waggy]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Weak concentration of ipa

Good point, should always use 99+% IPA, not the 70% stuff, the 99% soaks up water like a sponge, and even pulls it out of the atmosphere (which is why you have to keep the bottle sealed or your 99% will turn itself into 70%). I've seen the quick rusting too, but usually in high stress areas ie stress corrosion.

I was just clarifying with  @MarkF if the corrosion was pre or post cleaning, as I think up until that point it was assumed post-cleaning but this may not  have been the case.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Good point, should always use 99+% IPA, not the 70% stuff, the 99% soaks up water like a sponge, and even pulls it out of the atmosphere (which is why you have to keep the bottle sealed or your 99% will turn itself into 70%). I've seen the quick rusting too, but usually in high stress areas ie stress corrosion.

I was just clarifying with  @MarkF if the corrosion was pre or post cleaning, as I think up until that point it was assumed post-cleaning but this may not  have been the case.

Fresh ipa each time a cleaning operation is carried out is a step towards reducing flash rusting, also there was no  mention of spinning water off. You cant just rely on still air drying. I made all these mistakes when i started, its not a great way to learn but when you're on your own mistakes are a great tutor .

[nickelsilver]

Using water based cleaner isn't necessarily a death sentence. I've mentioned the Greiner cleaning machine that I used for years; it used water based cleaner, and then isopropyl alcohol for rinse- but it has a built-in distiller, so there was an endless supply of clean alcohol, and the distillation column had a fan below blowing the warm air (filtered) up to dry the parts. That machine never caused rust. Greiner hasn't made the specific cleaning solution in years, but they do make a water based cleaner for watch parts, their GS cleaner. I get what I understand is the same concoction, a concentrate, from Hegel. The old Greiner machine has been replaced with a modern Greiner ACS900, using petroleum based cleaners, but in the workshop many parts get cleaned regularly with the Hegel cleaner, rinsed in water then alcohol, and no rust issues.

 

The clock cleaning solution I use is also water based, from a formula out of the Finnish watchmaking school; again, no rust- but parts come out and get rinsed in hot water, then immediately alcohol, and then immediately on forced air dryer.

 

The above solutions are "pro"; I haven't tried dish soap or anything similar. The Hegel cleaner is about 50 bucks a liter, but makes 20 liters, so really not expensive.

[MarkF]

Thank you for all the advice. To answer some of the questions/comment…

No, there was not any rust there before cleaning. The movement is brand new and one I am using to learn and practice on. So as far as I can tell, the rust came about from the cleaning process. 
 

As for water based cleaning, even his holiness George Daniels says it is okay as long as IPA or another drying agent is used. That said, I thought I would give it a try for the first go but I do plan on switching to L&R products for future cleaning. 
 

I am still rather shocked at how quickly the rust appeared. The parts were taken out of the water, briefly shaken off and put immediately into 99.9% IPA.  I agree with many of the comments above - no more water cleaning for me. Too risky. 
 

Now, given the choice between soaking in IPA or Naptha to remove the rust (I am told both work) which is the better choice?  I assume the Naptha. Yes, I know there are better products, but given my expenditures over the past few weeks getting started up, I want to limit them for the next few weeks to avoid the divorce that could accompany them.

 

By the way…

Without starting a debate on whether or not to use ultrasonics or the merits of various cleaners which may or may not even be available in Canada…

Just wondering for anyone using L&R (or similar substitute) in an ultrasonic what your routine is?  Wash time and rinse time. Do you heat it at all or just use at room temperature?  There are lots of videos advocating for ultrasonics but many are often thin on specifics. Anyway, would love to hear what works for you. 

 

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The concoctions members use on here in order to clean their watch movements. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, you only have yourself to blame. Use the proper cleaners and rinse that is what they are manufactured for. Read about them see what the pros say.  Watch parts are very fragile, you can’t just plonk them in any solution.

Alex Hamilton, a pro, suggests Dawn dish soap as a suitable cleaner. Sorry to be harsh, but if you ask 100 “experts” you often get 100 replies. 

[oldhippy]

Sorry to say but a lot that is in  George Daniels book is out dated. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, MarkF said:

Now, given the choice between soaking in IPA or Naptha to remove the rust (I am told both work) which is the better choice?  I assume the Naptha. Yes, I know there are better products, but given my expenditures over the past few weeks getting started up, I want to limit them for the next few weeks to avoid the divorce that could accompany them.

Just a flash of rust i doubt hasn't had enough time to take hold. Some kitchen items remove rust such as citric acid,  acetic acid thats vinegar, Phosphoric acid in coka cola but are diluted with water so you can be back to square one if you are not more careful than before and acid can harm very small parts easily.  Since you are dealing with pivots mechanical removal might be a better if you have a gentle touch. I use soft pegwood and hard pithwood which almost seem meet each other in ability if the pegwood has been well soaked, soak them both in ipa ( 99% this time ) . Keep a stick of pegwood permanently in ipa ready for use. Looking for ideas at the moment for different types of wood to use that are soft enough for cleaning up and polishing pivots. balsa wood might be one , cork may also be useful i use it for a few different watch related uses.

29 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Sorry to say but a lot that is in  George Daniels book is out dated. 

That book is about 40 years old now.

Edited February 19 by Neverenoughwatches

[watchweasol]

Hi there are a lot of books out there written over 40 years ago, even Henry B Fried, they are lagging behind in technology but and it’s a big but there is still a lot of useful material to be gleaned from them, they are best followed as a guide to techniques and processes not followed verbatim.  I have books from the past, Chicago watch school, and the like full of useful information. Just because mr X said this is the best , it might have been in his day, but times move on. If you are not sure put a post up, you will likely be inundated with information which you can sift through or get corroboration on and hopefully solve your problem.

[nevenbekriev]

I will say again and for the last time: the rust, when it is surface and fresh, must be removed not in chemical way, but in mechanical. Use some polishing compaund/paste and wooden stick. When the rust gets deep, then You can throw hte parts in the dust bin.

[HectorLooi]

I started off using ultrasonic cleaning and water based degreasers. I also experienced rust on screws and steel pinions. The strange thing is it doesn't happen to every watch. Some go through the cleaning process and come out absolutely fine. It might be due the composition of the steel used.

I also ranted about water based cleaners on this forum and promptly got chided by several professional watchmakers. They said that they have been using water based cleaners for years and have never had any problems.

So I moved on to using water free solutions but these are frightfully expensive here in Singapore. A bottle of L&R #111 and Rinse #3 comes to a whopping $300. You'll have to do a lot of explaining to justify spending that kind of money.

But I never stopped thinking about why I was getting rust sometimes and why other watchmakers don't. Some of the points I've identified are:-

1) They are using professional water based watch cleaners. I think these professional cleaners contain rust inhibitors that are not listed in the MSDS.

2) They use rotary type cleaning machines. At the end of the cleaning cycle, the basket is spun at high speed to throw off any water trapped in narrow gaps such as screw slots and leaves of the pinions.

3) They use hot air to dry their parts. I think air circulation removes water droplets faster than waiting for parts to heat up via radiation and conduction in an oven and letting evaporation dry up any trapped droplets. AND heat speeds up chemical processes, which includes rusting.

[Geotex]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

3) They use hot air to dry their parts. I think air circulation removes water droplets faster than waiting for parts to heat up via radiation and conduction in an oven and letting evaporation dry up any trapped droplets. AND heat speeds up chemical processes, which includes rusting.

I agree that fast, warm drying is important. You can use water-free solutions all the way through but if you take parts out of an alcohol rinse and let them slowly air dry you can get a lot of water condensation on locations such as pivots and screw threads that are thin enough to experience significant evaporative cooling. Taking parts out one at a time onto watch paper and quickly drying them with a hand blower seemed to help me avoid flash rust problems when I was a beginner using naphtha and denatured alcohol to hand wash. Note that the room temperature and relative humidity will affect flash cooling/condensation, which is why a process that works fine on one occasion might show rusting the next time. 

[VWatchie]

21 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I get what I understand is the same concoction, a concentrate, from Hegel.

I haven't looked into it but perhaps it is similar to ELMA RED 1:9!? The Hegel is quite a bit more expensive though so maybe not. Anyway, good and interesting to have an alternative. Thanks!

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I haven't looked into it but perhaps it is similar to ELMA RED 1:9!? The Hegel is quite a bit more expensive though so maybe not. Anyway, good and interesting to have an alternative. Thanks!

I haven't tried the Elma, but I bet they are similar. Keep in mind a liter of Elma makes 10 liters of solution, and a liter of Hegel makes 20 liters- so the price ends up the same!

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I haven't tried the Elma, but I bet they are similar. Keep in mind a liter of Elma makes 10 liters of solution, and a liter of Hegel makes 20 liters- so the price ends up the same!

Yes, of course, you're totally right about that!  Thanks for pointing it out!

[rjenkinsgb]

Re. rust removal:

I'm using a formula created by one of the science channels on youtube (Elementalmaker).

 

It's cheap, not acidic and works in a similar way to  evaporust, but seems milder. It has worked well on everything I've tried it with so far, with no detrimental effects.

The formula is:

Per 100ml deionised water; 5g Tetrasodium EDTA [from amazon or ebay etc] then enough citric acid to bring it to ~6.5ph, testing with ph paper, plus a few drops of washing up liquid / dish soap.

I've only made one, 100ml batch so far and it shows no signs of stopping working, though it is starting to look a bit murky!

 

These spring winding arbours were the worst rusted items I've put in it - they had quite heavy scaled rust patches; you can see the darker grey areas where the rust ate in to the metal, compared to the untouched areas. The small clock parts are unaffected by the solution, other than the rust having gone.

(I've also used it on such as setting levers & other keyless components, that had quite significant rust from water ingress).

[rehajm]

 

1 hour ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I'm using a formula created by one of the science channels on youtube (Elementalmaker).

One of the troubles I have with Evaporust and the traditional citric solutions is they are quite sticky and I find aren't removed without significant physical scrubbing which is difficult from small gaps like between wheel teeth. Does this formula clean up easily?

[rjenkinsgb]

4 hours ago, rehajm said:

Does this formula clean up easily?

Yes, it does not seem at all sticky and is water-thin.

Things may need a wipe down (with a cloth or fingertips) after rinsing to remove rust residue, but that appears to be the remains of the degraded rust rather than the solution itself.

That may break down further if left longer? I usually submerse things from between 2 - 6 hours, depending how thick the rust looks.