Is something missing?

[Burruz]

Hi

I am a newbie that is trying to get a 1260 movement going and although it seems to work face up it stops face down. Can someone tell me if there an escape upper jewel cap missing from the photo or doesn’t this movement have one?

[Burruz]

1 minute ago, Burruz said:

Hi

I am a newbie that is trying to get a 1260 movement going and although it seems to work face up it stops face down. Can someone tell me if there an escape upper jewel cap missing from the photo or doesn’t this movement have one?

Sorry this isn’t the exact movement I am working on but does seem to be missing the same part. 

[RichardHarris123]

It is missing, the arrow points to the screw hole, it should have a  plate with the cap jewel in it , like the one below the arrow.  

[Burruz]

7 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It is missing, the arrow points to the screw hole, it should have a  plate with the cap jewel in it , like the one below the arrow.  

Thankyou Richard. I was thinking the same but I cannot find a picture with this piece fitted or a part number. I even bough a donor movement and that didn't have it either! It did have the upper balance jewel plate (as in my picture) could I use that?

[HectorLooi]

The shape of the jewel hole would determine if the hole was designed to have a cap jewel or not.

If the jewel hole is convex on the side facing the supposed cap jewel, then there should be a cap jewel. But if the jewel hole has an oil sink instead, then it means that the manufacturer decided to leave out the cap jewel in the final production.

[RichardHarris123]

Interesting @HectorLooi. I  didn't know that sometimes they were left out.  Have a look at this one, a lower incabloc setting but no cap jewel on the escapement.  Post a close up if the jewel. 

[Burruz]

24 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The shape of the jewel hole would determine if the hole was designed to have a cap jewel or not.

If the jewel hole is convex on the side facing the supposed cap jewel, then there should be a cap jewel. But if the jewel hole has an oil sink instead, then it means that the manufacturer decided to leave out the cap jewel in the final production.

 

 

Thanks Hector. That makes sense I will check and let you know. It does seem strange to have that machine detail and not use it. 

[HectorLooi]

15 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I  didn't know that sometimes they were left out.

Actually I don't know if they did that or not. But coming from my other hobby, electronics, I see a lot of pcbs with empty holes where components were designed to be. Somewhere down the line, the people on top decided to override the engineers and save a few pennies here and there.

[Jon]

Sometimes manufacturers would make a base model with 15 or 17 jewels and then they would also make a model with a higher jewel count, so it made no sense to make the main plate any different from the base model. The higher jewel count version would have a cap and the jewel would be convexed (olive jewel) with no oil sink and invariably the wheel that sat in the capped jewel would be a conical pivot/arbor rather than a cylindrical pivot/arbor with an oil sink

Edited January 5 by Jon

[ColinC]

32 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Actually I don't know if they did that or not. But coming from my other hobby, electronics, I see a lot of pcbs with empty holes where components were designed to be. Somewhere down the line, the people on top decided to override the engineers and save a few pennies here and there.

I think you are right here they build them with optional bits ready- I have 3 versions of the ETA 2472 movement.  1 with 25 jewels one with 21 jewels and 1 with 17 jewels.

I would have to open then again to be sure but I expect that the base plates are the same on all three watches. The 17 jewel version doesn't have the cap jewels. The 21 jewels version I think it has cap jewels and the 25 jewelled version also has some jewels in the self winding module

[Jon]

I sometimes work with Christopher Ward Watches. They gave me some of their in-house movements to pull apart and work out how they work with the view to create a service manual and train their watchmakers in the future; specifically, their SH21 movement in their C60 Abyss (https://www.christopherward.com/c60-abyss-sh21/C60-42APR3-SGKK0-BG.html) which retails for just over two grand, which in my opinion is a damn good price for a watch that is made in-house. Anyway, that watch has three iterations. One is a sweep second, with the fourth wheel in the centre powering the second's hand, another is a subsidiary second's hand at six O'clock, and one with a power reserve indicator. They all use a base model on all three iterations to keep costs at a minimum, which is what most manufacturers do. It's unusual, as it is an automatic watch with twin mainsprings that have a five-day power reserve. Why you would want a five-day power reserve on an automatic is beyond me, but hey. Still, a great watch movement in my opinion.

To get a perspective, you can buy a Breitling Heritage or an IWC Portofino for 5 grand that has an ETA movement inside, all be it slightly tweaked to call it their own, which in the real world would cost £300 to £500 for the actual movement. That's like buying an Aston Martin DB11 and finding a VW engine inside in my opinion!

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Burruz said:

Hi

I am a newbie that is trying to get a 1260 movement going and although it seems to work face up it stops face down. Can someone tell me if there an escape upper jewel cap missing from the photo or doesn’t this movement have one?

 

4 hours ago, Burruz said:

 

 

Thanks Hector. That makes sense I will check and let you know. It does seem strange to have that machine detail and not use it. 

I've had odd movements with the end pieces missing. The staff in question wether if its a balance escape or lever would be short in the top jewel if the end piece should be there.

[Endeavor]

I'm currently working on a NOS German 1960's, 25 jewels, HPP 431 automatic movement (cheap & crudely made!). The main plate has preparations for cap-jewels, but there are no cap-jewels installed.

Reading the "17-jewels".info about the HPP 431 (https://17jewels.info/movements/h/hpp/hpp-431/) ; their example had only one cap jewel installed;

In my case, there are none installed and since I'm the first one to open / work on this NOS ORFA watch, it's the factory (or worker??) who decided not install them.

As to the why? Next to the reason given above, perhaps another reason could be to save cost on jewels? HPP (Henzi und Pfaff) ran into trouble in 1966 and closed its doors in 1972.

Their movements can be found in "Helcules" and "OFRA"

 

 

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Jon said:

Sometimes manufacturers would make a base model with 15 or 17 jewels and then they would also make a model with a higher jewel count, so it made no sense to make the main plate any different from the base model. The higher jewel count version would have a cap and the jewel would be convexed (olive jewel) with no oil sink and invariably the wheel that sat in the capped jewel would be a conical pivot/arbor rather than a cylindrical pivot/arbor with an oil sink

it's always interesting what watch companies will do to enhance the quality of their watch by enhancing the jewel count. Even though we might question whether those jewels actually do enhance other than how much they charge. For instance in the bestfit book there's a image of a warning basically when you're purchasing escape wheels. But I do think sometimes the same morning could apply to pallet fork pivots. But their example is escape wheel.

 

[Malocchio]

It's also possible that the cap jewel got missing or broken and someone flipped the hole jewel around.

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Even though we might question whether those jewels actually do enhance

Wouldn't this style of jewelling with an end piece reduce friction a little bit ? The bottom would be running on a pivot end instead of a shoulder. And isn't the lubrication retention better ?

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Wouldn't this style of jewelling with an end piece reduce friction a little bit ? The bottom would be running on a pivot end instead of a shoulder. And isn't the lubrication retention better

perhaps a minor clarification here I was thinking more of pallet forks. Yes he should have less friction and the lubrication should stay where it's supposed to be better perhaps. But often times beyond a certain jewel count well some of the jewels are basically just a waste of time plus even an example up above how much better would it be to have one with the conical jewel and one with out that seems a bit strange doesn't it? Either all one type or all the other would seem to be a more appropriate. But unfortunately all four types can exist and it depends upon a variety of factors for the watch in other words if you're looking at parts list you might actually see all for escape wheels listed which I always find amusing. Especially if you order the wrong one it doesn't work well for you.

[Neverenoughwatches]

27 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

perhaps a minor clarification here I was thinking more of pallet forks. Yes he should have less friction and the lubrication should stay where it's supposed to be better perhaps. But often times beyond a certain jewel count well some of the jewels are basically just a waste of time plus even an example up above how much better would it be to have one with the conical jewel and one with out that seems a bit strange doesn't it? Either all one type or all the other would seem to be a more appropriate. But unfortunately all four types can exist and it depends upon a variety of factors for the watch in other words if you're looking at parts list you might actually see all for escape wheels listed which I always find amusing. Especially if you order the wrong one it doesn't work well for you.

I dont really understand the cap jewel on the dial side, if you were to have just one cap jewel the bridge would be the better choice. Watches spend more time dial up.

[rossjackson01]

16 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Interesting @HectorLooi. I  didn't know that sometimes they were left out.  Have a look at this one, a lower incabloc setting but no cap jewel on the escapement.  Post a close up if the jewel. 

Can I ask those who know?

In the photograph, the pivot is showing as entered into the jewel, and the jewel appears to be shaped as a well for the oil.  If the movement did have a cap stone, would the pivot jewel need to be different? 

[RichardHarris123]

Morning Ross, look @Jon answer from 15 hrs ago. 

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, Jon said:

Why you would want a five-day power reserve on an automatic is beyond me, but hey.

That's how I felt as well. Then had a discussion with my brother who's a collector (but not a tinkerer) and he has several automatics he rotates wearing. While not in use, a long power reserve will ensure he won't have to wind it and set it when putting it on his wrist a few days later. Now, he personally doesn't mind winding and setting (he enjoys it) but that's the argument as he perceived it.

[Burruz]

The jewel on the right has a sink for oil (unlike the left) so I suppose it isn’t missing a cap. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Burruz said:

The jewel on the right has a sink for oil (unlike the left) so I suppose it isn’t missing a cap. 

You have the left one yes ? Is there any evidence of the right thread hole ever  being used ?   It is possible the right jewel was swapped but the pivot would need to match the new jewel. Inspection of the pivot heights should give clues, is the top pivot hanging out or low in the jewel ?

[RichardHarris123]

I assumed that the plate was missing, it was pointed out that the plate may not of existed, the jewel was turned around and now the jewel was replaced.  Is watch repair interesting.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I assumed that the plate was missing, it was pointed out that the plate may not of existed, the jewel was turned around and now the jewel was replaced.  Is watch repair interesting.  

I would have assumed the same at first glance Rich, but who knows what alteration a watchmaker made to continue his work uninterrupted.  But yes makes sense to manufacture a one for all purpose plate.