More you tube mayhem.

[Neverenoughwatches]

So i was about to recommend this youtuber that initially looked quite professional, nice tools some skills good commentary. Watched a good hour of repairing techniques, then onto the assembly, then i realised I'm watching a full video where the guy doesn't know what a finger cot is. Fingers all over a full assembly of a mainspring barrel, more finger grease than barrel grease .See what you think.

Times Radical - This rolex explorer almost killed me.

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So i was about to recommend this youtuber that initially looked quite professional, nice tools some skills good commentary. Watched a good hour of repairing techniques, then onto the assembly, then i realised I'm watching a full video where the guy doesn't know what a finger cot is. Fingers all over a full assembly of a mainspring barrel, more finger grease than barrel grease .See what you think.

Times Radical - This rolex explorer almost killed me.

I must say that I used to watch a lot of channels and have unsubscribed as I have learned a lot more from here. There seems to be more well edited videos out there than genuine teachers. Also whilst I applaud anyone having a go with watchmaking and a YouTube channel I get rather cautious when bigger channels laud them as watchmakers. I know, I’m a grumpy old git but I hate people pushing sloppy practice out there as marvellous. Nice tools don’t make a craftsman, I’m pretty sure Rich I could give you a crappy old chisel and you would be able to sharpen it quickly and perform a good job. We do have to consider that a lot of these folks do not have a background in watchmaking, but surely they could try and learn best current practices.

 

Tom

[Knebo]

Oh, I'll definitely watch this video! The Rolex Explorers from the 1950s/60s are my absolute grail watch.

I skipped into the video and accidentally landed right where he is doing the barrel assembly with his bare finger all over the barrel and mainspring. Crazy!

PS: I'm not convinced by his oiling technique on the gear train... why oil the mainspring jewels before putting the wheels and why oil the other pivots before putting the train bridge?? Sound like asking for oil to run where it's not supposed to be, especially with the rather generous amounts of oil that he uses. Classical oiling of jewels when pivots are in seems better in every way. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Knebo

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Oh, I'll definitely watch this video! The Rolex Explorers from the 1950s/60s are my absolute grail watch.

I skipped into the video and accidentally landed right where he is doing the barrel assembly with his bare finger all over the barrel and mainspring. Crazy!

PS: I'm not convinced by his oiling technique on the gear train... why oil the mainspring jewels before putting the wheels and why oil the other pivots before putting the train bridge?? Sound like asking for oil to run where it's not supposed to be, especially with the rather generous amounts of oil that he uses. Classical oiling of jewels when pivots are in seems better in every way. 

I dont get it, hes talking likea pro,doing 3 watches a day on top of this one. Why something so basic like preventing bare fingers from touching the movement. Not once in the entire 2 hour video does he handle parts wearing cots. Yet his mini lathe was really nice, just another bullshitter I'm sad to say. I wonder if the watch owner would ever watch it and understand the bad practices. 

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I’m pretty sure Rich I could give you a crappy old chisel and you would be able to sharpen it quickly and perform a good job. 

I could pass for a rough arsed joiner if thats what you mean ?

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

We do have to consider that a lot of these folks do not have a background in watchmaking, but surely they could try and learn best current practices.

 

His comments if true, strongly suggest he does this for a living. In his defence he was fed up with working on it, but i didn't see anything out of the ordinary that a pro doesn't do day and day out.  I like to make sense of things, this i can't. 

[Kalanag]

3 months ago he was asked why he doesn‘t wear finger cots.

Here is his answer:

Edited December 18, 2023 by Kalanag

[nickelsilver]

There are older watchmakers who never saw much less used a finger cot, but you get trained to handle parts with tweezers not fingers- even if they are about to go in the cleaning machine. It gets tricky with the barrel, especially if you are obliged to wind the spring in by hand, but again good technique is to use a winder, if you don't have one that works for that barrel, you get one or modify another.

 

If you look at old vids of people working in factories, they do handle mainplates by the edges and so forth, but definitely avoid handling parts with fingers. They used to make a soap that acted as a skin barrier to prevent our naturally acid ph skin from affecting finishes or causing rust. Also I heard from old guys there was a total ban on eating citrus fruit during the workday including breakfast as the oils can be hard to remove from skin and can stain plates and bridges.

 

I won't pass judgement on this guy, vid is way too long to watch even at 2x speed, but a quick scan shows he does seem to know what he's doing- but I wonder if his pieces end up at another watchmaker a year later...

[rehajm]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

 

There are older watchmakers who never saw much less used a finger cot

 

It appears this fellow has never heard of them either.

Don’t waste gloves.

Edited December 18, 2023 by rehajm

[rossjackson01]

Thank you to members for the guidance to watch the video. As a novice I am intrigued to see what I could achieve. I was impressed by his knowledge and understanding of the movement. Some of his comments left me wondering what the owner of the watch under service would think. A 'this will do' attitude. As members say, finger cots? I use gloves, but still am careful. The oiling of the crown wheel? More than I put on as a beginner. And bending the third wheel? What? Scratching the part when using the burr removal tool? 

If I am ever lucky enough to work on a Rolex, I may consider that video for referencing if I couldn't find another. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

There are older watchmakers who never saw much less used a finger cot, but you get trained to handle parts with tweezers not fingers- even if they are about to go in the cleaning machine. It gets tricky with the barrel, especially if you are obliged to wind the spring in by hand, but again good technique is to use a winder, if you don't have one that works for that barrel, you get one or modify another.

 

If you look at old vids of people working in factories, they do handle mainplates by the edges and so forth, but definitely avoid handling parts with fingers. They used to make a soap that acted as a skin barrier to prevent our naturally acid ph skin from affecting finishes or causing rust. Also I heard from old guys there was a total ban on eating citrus fruit during the workday including breakfast as the oils can be hard to remove from skin and can stain plates and bridges.

 

I won't pass judgement on this guy, vid is way too long to watch even at 2x speed, but a quick scan shows he does seem to know what he's doing- but I wonder if his pieces end up at another watchmaker a year later...

I completely get that, i hate wearing cots the difference in the use of tweezers and drivers is huge for me when i dont wear them. Ive worked with bare hands for 40 years and hate gloves, i adapted not to have to, handling glass is the only except and then i dont always wear them unless its 6mm plate or heavier. So i dont always wear cots and rarely use a cushion, if its in a holder i dont need to touch the movement and can spin it over if needed  with wide tipped tweezer. Barrel assembly is different i need to use fingers to handle that and anything to do with the dial. If you watch him assemble the barrel his finger goes right inside all over the mainspring he just oiled, rodico goes no where near it afterwards,  he doesn't reoil it and pushes the lid straight back on . Anyone watching his video can see his answer is false. Shame because he does seem to know his his stuff.

14 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you to members for the guidance to watch the video. As a novice I am intrigued to see what I could achieve. I was impressed by his knowledge and understanding of the movement. Some of his comments left me wondering what the owner of the watch under service would think. A 'this will do' attitude. As members say, finger cots? I use gloves, but still am careful. The oiling of the crown wheel? More than I put on as a beginner. And bending the third wheel? What? Scratching the part when using the burr removal tool? 

If I am ever lucky enough to work on a Rolex, I may consider that video for referencing if I couldn't find another. 

 

I think with this guy he does know what he's doing but he doesn't actually care that much how he goes about it.

10 hours ago, Kalanag said:

3 months ago he was asked why he doesn‘t wear finger cots.

Here is his answer:

Thats complete pants, " in situations where the watchmaker tends to have corrosive oils in his fingers prints ". Doesn't everybody always and not that long after washing them. Dry clean with rodico that ive just handled with my fingers, i think he needs to look at how much oil that rodico has absorbed from his fingers. How many gloves would i have used on this overhaul large bag of 650 cots for a tenner. If you wipe them with ipa before you start or reuse them the 6 will last the day out, thats 3 months by my reckoning.  Maybe I'm having a bad day and just feel like ragging someone to pieces .

[Jon]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:53 AM, nickelsilver said:

I won't pass judgement on this guy, vid is way too long to watch even at 2x speed, but a quick scan shows he does seem to know what he's doing- but I wonder if his pieces end up at another watchmaker a year later...

I'm sorry, I've got to disagree. This guy has no idea how to oil a train, or how much oil to use, as he was painting the stuff onto every post. Completely missed out on the winding stem, put cap jewels on a dirty surface then put it together with the chaton. The way he put on the wheel over third was quite shocking to watch and then gave the wheel a good push from the side to get it at the same level as the sweep second pinion which more than likely bent the third wheel arbor, that's not including handling every part with his fingers and holding down bridges and parts with his sharp tweezers. Apart from putting it together, I can't see what he did right. I was shocked at the great tools he had but his technique and his practices are abysmal.  This watch is going to end up on someone else's bench within a year. 

What the hell was he doing oiling the jewels and then putting the wheels in place? WTF!

How much grease did he put on the centre wheel? Enough for ten centre wheels!

This should have been titled 'I almost killed this Rolex Explorer'

And to top it all, the amplitude for a serviced watch with a new mainspring was crap!

I too don't like to judge other's work, but come on! This was one of the worst service videos I have ever seen. I keep saying to my students 'Just because it's on YouTube, doesn't make it the truth' and the worrying thing is he has thousands of subscribers who will think this is the way to service a watch. Jesus!

Edited December 20, 2023 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Jon said:

I'm sorry, I've got to disagree. This guy has no idea how to oil a train, or how much oil to use, as he was painting the stuff onto every post. Completely missed out on the winding stem, put cap jewels on a dirty surface then put it together with the chaton. The way he put on the wheel over third was quite shocking to watch and then gave the wheel a good push from the side to get it at the same level as the sweep second pinion which more than likely bent the third wheel arbor, that's not including handling every part with his fingers and holding down bridges and parts with his sharp tweezers. Apart from putting it together, I can't see what he did right. I was shocked at the great tools he had but his technique and his practices are abysmal.  This watch is going to end up on someone else's bench within a year. 

What the hell was he doing oiling the jewels and then putting the wheels in place? WTF!

How much grease did he put on the centre wheel? Enough for ten centre wheels!

This should have been titled 'I almost killed this Rolex Explorer'

And to top it all, the amplitude for a serviced watch with a new mainspring was crap!

I too don't like to judge other's work, but come on! This was one of the worst service videos I have ever seen. I keep saying to my students 'Just because it's on YouTube, doesn't make it the truth' and the worrying thing is he has thousands of subscribers who will think this is the way to service a watch. Jesus!

Apparently this is how he's made a living for the last 15 years. I watched a few more, he constantly moans. Yes his practice is very poor considering its his profession. 

[oldhippy]

As I'm one of the old buggers that never used finger cots I always used Radico, always handled parts with tweezers and I couldn't get on using watch mainspring winders. I learned how to put a spring in its barrel without touching the spring by using tissue paper. I expect now I'll be sent to Coventry for the rest of my time on this forum.  Happy Christmas.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

As I'm one of the old buggers that never used finger cots I always used Radico, always handled parts with tweezers and I couldn't get on using watch mainspring winders. I learned how to put a spring in its barrel without touching the spring by using tissue paper. I expect now I'll be sent to Coventry for the rest of my time on this forum.  Happy Christmas.  

I think you can be forgiven you old bugger.

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think you can be forgiven you old bugger.

[rehajm]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think you can be forgiven you old bugger.

Susie Dent- Americans calling on line 1…

Edited December 21, 2023 by rehajm

[HectorLooi]

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I always used Radico

If I remember correctly, Blu-tack came out in the seventies. What did you use prior to that?

I read somewhere that the Waltham factory tasked a lady to make a batch of dough every morning and that was used like Rodico.

Maybe @Neverenoughwatches would like to make his own Rodico. Any extra can be used for making chapati.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

If I remember correctly, Blu-tack came out in the seventies. What did you use prior to that?

I read somewhere that the Waltham factory tasked a lady to make a batch of dough every morning and that was used like Rodico.

Maybe @Neverenoughwatches would like to make his own Rodico. Any extra can be used for making chapati.

Haha you remembered i can cook and bake.  i haven't made any bread for ages, i have another reason now.

[JohnR725]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:08 AM, tomh207 said:

We do have to consider that a lot of these folks do not have a background in watchmaking, but surely they could try and learn best current practices.

Yes the background history of some of the channels are quite interesting if they would tell us. I rewrote one channel or the person indicated I think basically he didn't have time to go to a school. On the other hand that unnamed channel has lots of viewers and seems a very popular and probably makes lots of money doing exactly what he is doing. But if you know what they're supposed to be doing then things get amusing. Which probably explains why I typically do not watch watch repair videos when I come home almost anything but that

 

On 12/18/2023 at 10:12 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

rodico has absorbed from his fingers

When I was in school and we went to BERGEON It was explained that this is made in Canada and they purchase the entire supply each year. I don't recall them saying what it is originally used for.

Then its use becomes interesting depending upon who is talking about it. For instance in the American watch and clockmakers Institute magazine horological times they became very obsessed with not touching it at all because of course is going to absorb the oils in your skin. They became very very obsessed with its use and if I remember right they figured out a way of putting it into a brass tube so they can reject it out and cut it off in little pieces. Then you would sponge up whatever it was you are doing you would not wipe out all wiping was a sin and it was never ever reused. Yes they had some very clear defined ideas of its use which was quite amusing.

My favorite though was in a BHI journal somebody reviewing their witschi watch expert timing machine excited about they could look at amplitude. In the midst of doing something they wiped the oil off the balance pivots with this miracle substance and lost amplitude so maybe it's not a miracle substance and maybe it shouldn't be universally used every place.

Then the video is way way way too long I'm not going to watch all of it I skimmed over a lot of it and noticed some things which I'm a comment on out of order. Like at the end of the video escapement lubrication was not quite right and some of it may have been done in secret because he needed his loop but couldn't show us some not sure of what he was doing there. Then he winds the watch up super tight I don't recall Him demagnetizing Watch as it goes immediately on the timing machine and you can see what I view as the evidence of lubrication has improperly spread to the escapement which is why the waveform looks a bit rough.

On the other hand he showed and talked about the spring for the sweep second pinion as to how tight it should be which I thought was quite interesting in a very clear definition of that.

But the most interesting thing was a tool that he has I've seen it used before a YouTube videoAt 43:28 There's a box with interesting mini lathe and interesting fixtures the last time I saw this on a YouTube video the person did not show all the accessories or the box and I'm pretty sure this has to be Rolex tool purchased from Rolex. This is not the tool of a hobbyist even the knowledge of such a thing isn't normally found in their service manual's. So it appears to be that he's had professional training and has access to something that you normally wouldn't have access to. But his techniques are quite interesting and I really not going to watch the entire video to see anything else that distresses me.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

14 hours ago, oldhippy said:

As I'm one of the old buggers that never used finger cots I always used Radico, always handled parts with tweezers and I couldn't get on using watch mainspring winders. I learned how to put a spring in its barrel without touching the spring by using tissue paper. I expect now I'll be sent to Coventry for the rest of my time on this forum.  Happy Christmas.  

Coventry? In Devon?

I'd trust and use your guidance any time. 

I use gloves, but have learned to be more like Mark, using tweezers for holding and moving.

Edited December 21, 2023 by rossjackson01

[oldhippy]

Ross you don't under stand us down here. This is what is meant when sent to Coventry.

 

 "Send to Coventry" is an idiom used in England meaning to deliberately ostracise someone. Typically, this is done by not talking to them, avoiding their company, and acting as if they no longer exist. Coventry is an historical cathedral city in Warwickshire

[Jon]

14 hours ago, oldhippy said:

As I'm one of the old buggers that never used finger cots I always used Radico,

My tutor never wore finger cots, as he was 'old school' but he did handle parts from the sides and was constantly washing his hands like he had OCD. I never once saw him handle parts like Times Radical, therefore he could never etch his fingerprint into the plating.

Here's the dial side of a Rolex 645 I serviced this week with a finger or thumbprint beautifully etched into the rhodium plating. That will never come out.

Probably the same fettler who scratches the arrow and 'W' on the rotor to denote which way it wound and more than likely the same guy who files down the replacement bush on the upper auto bridge. Genius!

Incidentally, they had set that bush 0.06 mm to one side throwing one of the auto wheels out, as you can see from the photo.

I used my depthing tool to work out where it should have been in the second to last pic.

I know I've strayed a little off-topic, but it highlights what fingers on bridges can do and if that's acceptable, then what's the harm in scratching marks into the rotor and bridges and filing the top of bridges?

Then the watch ends up on someone else's bench and the customer wonders why it costs so much to rectify the previous lash-up. Rant over!  

The last pic is of the movement minus the auto works or rotor in place

 

 

 

 

[tomh207]

The thing for me is things move on, we didn’t use seatbelts in the ‘60s, not invented yet, should we go back to those days? I don’t believe so. As for finger cots they were not available for the most of the time watches have been made, does that mean we shouldn’t use them? Hell no! In my opinion, having been involved in the creation of the internet we enjoy here, things will progress, there is no such thing as “best practice “ only “best CURRENT practice “

 

Tom

[Malocchio]

Talking about finger cots, are they all that slippery? I have some cheap cots from Cousins but I feel more comfortable using a nitrile glove in left hand only. I'm used to using gloves for long times at work, they just have to be tight enough to keep good touch.

[nevenbekriev]

23 hours ago, oldhippy said:

As I'm one of the old buggers that never used finger cots I always used Radico, always handled parts with tweezers and I couldn't get on using watch mainspring winders. I learned how to put a spring in its barrel without touching the spring by using tissue paper. I expect now I'll be sent to Coventry for the rest of my time on this forum.  Happy Christmas.  

Just curious, what is to be sent to Coventry? I for sure deserve the same, may be more...

Oops, I find the answer little above.

Edited December 21, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[rossjackson01]

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Ross you don't under stand us down here. This is what is meant when sent to Coventry.

 

 "Send to Coventry" is an idiom used in England meaning to deliberately ostracise someone. Typically, this is done by not talking to them, avoiding their company, and acting as if they no longer exist. Coventry is an historical cathedral city in Warwickshire

Totally understood. I'm English. Was just being silly about geography. Perhaps you won't speak to me after my poor joke. Har har. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by rossjackson01