Seiko 5 7009A movement runs like a rocket.

[Symeon]

Greetings to everyone. I am Symeon. New member here.

As you can see from the photos attached this is a Seiko 5 with 7009A movement. The watch belongs to my father and it was inactive for almost 30 years. My father had it serviced two or three times either in a Seiko shop or in an independent watchmaker. The problems I face are as follows.
Although I adjust beat error and movement (using either my phone or a linux software) the watch runs smoothly and keeps time AS LONG AS I LEAVE IT ALONE on my desk 90% of the time. If I wear it and do my usual stuff during the day, it runs like crazy. For the time being the movement, as you can see from the photos is adjusted as slow as possible but the problem remains. I'm thinking of disassembling it and change the whole balance wheel with the supporting cock. Appart from this problem it seems that something is missing from the case or the movement itself because the movement seems to have some play inside the case no matter how hard I screw the lid. From the photos you can see the metallic ring supports and perhaps locks the movement in place. But it seems that it isn't enough.
I have searched the internet for infos about this particular model but I found nothing of interest appart from the service manual of the movement.
Can someone give a piece of advice on what's best to do?
Thank you in advance and I wish to apologize for my English.

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome.  The running crazy could be a broken pivot, letting the wheel train disengage from the escapement.  Not sure about the movement in case issue. 

[Nucejoe]

How fast is crazy?    

 If it runs a minute in a few seconds then as said its the fork fluttering, check the fork, escape pivot and relevent  side/ end shakes.

A vid of the fork when its crazy helps.

Shaking the watch on bench is like wearing it.

Welcome to the forum pal. 

[Symeon]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:35 PM, Nucejoe said:

How fast is crazy?    

 If it runs a minute in a few seconds then as said its the fork fluttering, check the fork, escape pivot and relevent  side/ end shakes.

A vid of the fork when its crazy helps.

Shaking the watch on bench is like wearing it.

Welcome to the forum pal. 

Unfortunately I cannot post a video. The forum won't let me do it. I'll try to make a gif of the videos I recorded.

[tomh207]

It might be easier to post the video to YouTube then link it here.

 

Tom

[Symeon]

14 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

It might be easier to post the video to YouTube then link it here.

 

Tom

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I think your case gasket is missing. Seiko uses a flat rubber gasket that sits in the groove formed by the watch case and movement ring.

Did you do a full disassembly, clean and lubricate or just regulated the watch only?

[Nucejoe]

Thats generally a  hairspring issue,  sticking, fouling itself.....even strongly magnetized spring and rarely  strong mainspring.

Detach the balance complete from the cock and show a top & side view of the coil then demag the oscilator.

Was this the gif?  or actually running like this?

Rgds

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Symeon]

19 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I think your case gasket is missing. Seiko uses a flat rubber gasket that sits in the groove formed by the watch case and movement ring.

Did you do a full disassembly, clean and lubricate or just regulated the watch only?

No I didn't do a full disassembly. This requires some hours especially for a beginner like me. I just regulated the watch. Thanks for the info about the gasket.

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Thats generally a  hairspring issue,  sticking, fouling itself.....even strongly magnetized spring and rarely  strong mainspring.

Detach the balance complete from the cock and show a top & side view of the coil then demag the oscilator.

Was this the gif?  or actually running like this?

Rgds

 

Will do. Thank you. This is the real video not a gif.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Symeon said:

Will do. Thank you. This is the real video not a gif.

 When you have the watch on wrist ( dynamic state ) a shake of the hand can imparts energy to balance wheel and increase its amplitude then as the hairspring coil recoils each circle can come in contact with a neighboring one, so in case the spring is dirty/ sticky/ magnetized the two neghboring circles stick together thus shortening the active length of the hairspring, which results in reduction of amplitude and increases frequency. 

Just so you know why we need to see the coil, which might need a bit of sorting out or a clean and reinstal/demag.

Regds

 

[Nucejoe]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:09 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

Hello and welcome.  The running crazy could be a broken pivot, letting the wheel train disengage from the escapement.  Not sure about the movement in case.

 I am not sure either, I think the O-ring goes first with the cut upside, then insert the stem in. If stem is fitted first, then O-ring can only be fitted the wrong side up. 

[watchweasol]

I would be inclined to put it on a timegrapher or the like and check the stats, amplitude,  beat,  rate etc to get a true pic5ure of 2here we are at the moment,  the arc of vibration looks to be small.  ( low amplitude). Needs checking.

[JohnR725]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:09 AM, Symeon said:

Although I adjust beat error and movement (using either my phone or a linux software)

can we see pictures of whatever you using the phone and or the other software in other words we want to see what you're looking at that's telling you you're having a problem.

On 7/9/2023 at 12:09 AM, Symeon said:

the watch runs smoothly and keeps time AS LONG AS I LEAVE IT ALONE on my desk 90% of the time. If I wear it and do my usual stuff during the day, it runs like crazy. For the time being the movement, as you can see from the photos is adjusted as slow as possible but the problem remains. I'm thinking of disassembling it and change the whole balance wheel with the supporting cock.

oh minor little clarification here there are two things to adjust in the watch your using the software to adjust the beat error and what he using to regulate the watch?

Then before changing things we really need a better explaining a better what's going on?

On 7/9/2023 at 12:09 AM, Symeon said:

The watch belongs to my father and it was inactive for almost 30 years. My father had it serviced two or three times either in a Seiko shop or in an independent watchmaker. The problems I face are as follows.

okay so it had been serviced and it was inactive for 30 years. So it's really saying is it had been serviced prior he wore it to let off and 30 years later were seeing this problem? By the way your watch needs a complete servicing because whether it's inactive or not the lubrication's are all don't disintegrate anyway which can be an issue.

Someone trying to figure out is right out of the drawer this is what the problem was or have you worn out a while and then suddenly this problem has popped up?

20 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Just so you know why we need to see the coil, which might need a bit of sorting out or a clean and reinstal/demag.

ideally because the problem is in the watch we need better views of the balance wheel and hairspring in the watch. Because as soon as somebody who's never done watch repair removes the balance wheel from the watch interesting things will happen and probably none of them good.

55 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

I would be inclined to put it on a timegrapher or the like and check the stats, amplitude,  beat,  rate etc to get a true pic5ure of 2here we are at the moment,  the arc of vibration looks to be small.  ( low amplitude). Needs checking.

and yes this would be good thing to do except we've already indicated you've done that you really need to share the results with us. Often times interpreting phone apps are very very bad very unreliable. Don't know anything about your other software we need to see how that's all working because depending upon how that's working that is extremely unreliable also. This is why we need pictures to see what were using for diagnostics

[Symeon]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:21 AM, HectorLooi said:

I think your case gasket is missing. Seiko uses a flat rubber gasket that sits in the groove formed by the watch case and movement ring

Does this gasket have a part number or a name? I can't find any info regarding that specific model

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

can we see pictures of whatever you using the phone and or the other software in other words we want to see what you're looking at that's telling you you're having a problem.

oh minor little clarification here there are two things to adjust in the watch your using the software to adjust the beat error and what he using to regulate the watch?

Then before changing things we really need a better explaining a better what's going on?

okay so it had been serviced and it was inactive for 30 years. So it's really saying is it had been serviced prior he wore it to let off and 30 years later were seeing this problem? By the way your watch needs a complete servicing because whether it's inactive or not the lubrication's are all don't disintegrate anyway which can be an issue.

Someone trying to figure out is right out of the drawer this is what the problem was or have you worn out a while and then suddenly this problem has popped up?

ideally because the problem is in the watch we need better views of the balance wheel and hairspring in the watch. Because as soon as somebody who's never done watch repair removes the balance wheel from the watch interesting things will happen and probably none of them good.

and yes this would be good thing to do except we've already indicated you've done that you really need to share the results with us. Often times interpreting phone apps are very very bad very unreliable. Don't know anything about your other software we need to see how that's all working because depending upon how that's working that is extremely unreliable also. This is why we need pictures to see what were using for diagnostics

I'll do my best to send some photos of the software I use in the next few days. As for the inactivity of the watch, my father can't recall something specific, but he is pretty sure rhat there was a problem.

As soon as I took the watch in my hands and shook it, it started working but it stopped a few minutes later. Then I wore it for a whole day and it started working. But it was fast. I searched for info over the net for the movement and I found pretty much and for that specific model but I found nothing except a page with general info.

I managed to find some software for adjusting it and I did it. The watch was working fine on the desk and for one or two days after I put it on my wrist. Then it started going fast again. I tried to adjust it again with no results. This is the short story.

Thanks a lot for your reply.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Symeon said:

but he is pretty sure rhat there was a problem.

classically when people take their watches off and put them in the where were they put them and don't wear them again they have a problem. Watches that classically have a problem well there is no classic but they have a problem something it needs to be repaired. Oftentimes you'll see watches on eBay and other places where the regulators is push to the extreme to try to compensate for a problem which is not a regulation problem. in other words this watch needs to be serviced and attempting to regulate won't fix the problem or replacing a balance complete will not necessarily fix the problem especially when all the lubrication's after 30 years are no longer going to be functional.

Then if you're looking for Seiko case part numbers we need the entire case number that's the movement number found on the back. It's the number that starts with the movement number and then it has some additional digits because casing parts are assigned to casing numbers not movement numbers. They can be literally thousands of styles of cases that would hold that movement that's why you need to complete number.

 

[Symeon]

Well, well happy new year to everyone.

Long time no see, right?

It's been a while since I last visited the forum but I wasn't able to get my hands on the watch due to some personal issues, until recently.

What I found out when I removed the complete balance cock (holding my breath of course) was that a pallet cock screw was missing from the cock!

I then removed the fork and the escape wheel, washed, oiled them and put them back (it took me some time to put the balance cock back though). The watch started working and it worked well for a few days. Suddenly, one morning it started speeding again. I open the cover and I saw that some coils were stuck together and I also noticed some residue of something on them. I removed again the balance and dipped it in pure alcohol for a few minutes and then hung it on a toothpick to dry it. I gently re-oiled it and put it back.

It's been over a week now and it goes ok, missing a few seconds per day. I believe I will have it timegraphed at a professional cause I do not have a timegrapher apart from a piece of software under linux called tg. I also have to find a screw for the pallet cock.

I'm sending here a link to a video for you to see the balance wheel and the coils of the hairspring. You will see some focus problems because I try to make the coils more visible.

 

On 7/13/2023 at 12:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

Then if you're looking for Seiko case part numbers we need the entire case number that's the movement number found on the back. It's the number that starts with the movement number and then it has some additional digits because casing parts are assigned to casing numbers not movement numbers. They can be literally thousands of styles of cases that would hold that movement that's why you need to complete number.

 

The case says 7009-5110

Edited January 6 by Symeon

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Symeon said:

7009-5110

with the case number and the luck we get a link with case parts. You click on each the items and find out what other watches use the same item as your watch.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK+CS%237009-5110&submit=Search