Service not recommended for Rolex from 1991

[VWatchie]

Someone on the Swedish watch forum klocksnack.se told the following interesting and puzzling story.

In 1991, a Rolex TT DJ36 was purchased. It was used daily for about a year and then sat in a chest of drawers for over 25 years. Since it had been unused for so long, the owner took the watch to one of Sweden's most reputable watchmakers (Nymans ur) and asked them to assess the need for a service, and was then told that the watch was running so well that there was no need for service. Nyman's ur said: "We'd be happy to serve it, but if you don't have a problem....Your money, Your choice."

I think this sounds like a very strange answer because the oils should have evaporated after so many decades. Or could it be that the oils are preserved if the watch is not used?

Personally, I would never have taken a chance with such an expensive watch, but at the same time I can understand that you hesitate to carry out a service when the "experts" say that it is not necessary.

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts and views on this, especially from one of our professionals such as @JohnR725 and or @nickelsilver.

[JohnR725]

we probably need a clarification here. Does the owner of the watch intend on wearing it daily now or was the owner of the watch just concerned that the watch should be serviced even though there's no intention on using the watch?

if the watch was going to go in the daily use then it should have been serviced. The gaskets more than likely after that amount of time will go bad and because it's perceived that this is a Rolex is waterproof more likely it's going to get damp and damp with bad gaskets is bad. As far as the oils or lubrication's evaporating I'm not sure if I've ever really seen that. Not saying it can't happen it just isn't what I've seen perhaps.

Then I had a Rolex that I had serviced and basically never worn almost. I would occasionally where it for special events just to show people look I have Rolex and the rest the time it was someplace safe. Then I purchased my witschi timing machine I decided to service the Rolex because now I could do a proper before and after timing and I can see the amplitude. No cheap Chinese did not exist back then for timing machines. When I service the watch I had remembered how I had previously lubricated it the PML stem grease on the keyless looked well if I wasn't paying attention I might've thought I was reassembling the watch it looked perfect. Then the rest the watch the thing is that I remember was the 9020 on the gear train was visibly still there. The 9010 on the balance pivots as usual for anything I've serviced over time where I know that there was 9010 there there was none.

I'm still not sure I 9010 I'm assuming that it spreads and does not evaporate. This is because all the literature I've ever seen anywhere where you use 9010 you also have epilam to keep it from spreading. But it also could evaporate in any case it was no longer there.

It's a shame the owner of the watch couldn't get a guarantee. Like everything is perfect and you will guarantee that it will stay perfect for X number of years so I can go and where my watch every single day and not have to fear that the gaskets are bad or the lubrication is bad and that someday down the road the watch repair won't cost twice as much because disintegrated because it really should've been serviced. The problem is even with a timing machine it just tells you the balance pivots are good but it doesn't tell you the functionality the lubrication especially on things like the automatic. Very common with the first automatics with a lot of metal on metal bearings and synthetic oils of the oils we just disappear and the bearings would disintegrate. One of the advantages of organic oils are they just typically get sticky the watch stops it safely immobilized until it's cleaned versus no lubrication at all and it's free to disintegrate.

so probably the answer is of the watch was going back into the safe and it wasn't going to be run it's probably fine. But if anyone was going to wear it then it should be serviced even if it looks fine. It's actually better service a watch when it looks fine than waiting until it looks bad then typically it's going to be really bad.

 

[nickelsilver]

I can "ditto" what John said.

 

I have a friend who brought me a Rolex to service. He's owned it since the 90s, and it's never been serviced; I was expecting to find a worn rotor axle at least, among other wear. But it looked decent on the Witschi prior to service, a bit low on amplitude and rate a bit slow. And there was no wear. Turns out, like John, he wears it from time to time, not daily. So it survived just fine. I told him it's good for 5 years now of daily wear, 10 if he just puts it on occasionally. Had it been a customer, I would have told them it needs a service if it's to be worn, or it can remain unserviced if it was to go back in the safe, but would be specific that if it was used in its non-serviced state it would risk harming numerous components, plus the unknown water resistance John mentioned- which could spell total destruction.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Someone on the Swedish watch forum klocksnack.se told the following interesting and puzzling story.

In 1991, a Rolex TT DJ36 was purchased. It was used daily for about a year and then sat in a chest of drawers for over 25 years. Since it had been unused for so long, the owner took the watch to one of Sweden's most reputable watchmakers (Nymans ur) and asked them to assess the need for a service, and was then told that the watch was running so well that there was no need for service. Nyman's ur said: "We'd be happy to serve it, but if you don't have a problem....Your money, Your choice."

I think this sounds like a very strange answer because the oils should have evaporated after so many decades. Or could it be that the oils are preserved if the watch is not used?

Personally, I would never have taken a chance with such an expensive watch, but at the same time I can understand that you hesitate to carry out a service when the "experts" say that it is not necessary.

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts and views on this, especially from one of our professionals such as @JohnR725 and or @nickelsilver.

Hi watchie I mentioned the same thing to John yesterday about my sister's 45 year old watch that had never been serviced. It had a beat error of 8.8, she said she always had to shake it to start it. It had been in a draw for 40 years or so. Once correction of the beat error it ran perfectly. The oil was still in the jewels even the balance. This is the tg readings i got after the beat error was almost removed. 

[oldhippy]

There are a few factors that need to be considered. the type of lubrication that Rolex use. Temperature where the watch was kept. What type of place did the owner of the watch live or work in. Watches should be serviced between 5 to 7 years with normal use but then what do you call normal. I expect  Nymans ur know what they are talking about. 

[VWatchie]

39 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

my sister's 45 year old watch

On this forum we're usually interested in the little details such as what calibre a watch houses 

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It had been in a draw for 40 years or so. Once correction of the beat error it ran perfectly. The oil was still in the jewels even the balance.

That's really interesting and surprising to me. I would have expected the watch to be dry, but reading your, nickelsilver's, and John's posts, it would seem to me that the oils mostly remain if the watch is being unused. Question then is what the state of those oils is. That is, will they last and do their job just the same had the movement been recently serviced!?

Perhaps a good idea would be to inspect the movement again after a few months or so!?

25 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I expect  Nymans ur know what they are talking about. 

I would both expect that and hope so, and it could be that the owner of the watch told NymansUR (the story doesn't tell) that he was just intending to use it on few yearly occasions and not anywhere near a damp environment.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

On this forum we're usually interested in the little details such as what calibre a watch houses

Lol. AlI  i know watchie is the name on the dial was Everite. As it didn't need any parts and was an easy fix i never thought to make a note of it. Found it in my phone photos it a chaika 1301

Edited April 16, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[mikepilk]

Synthetic car engine oil has a 'shelf life' of 5 years. I assume watch oil is similar i.e. it degrades over time even without use.

Edited April 16, 2023 by mikepilk

[canthus]

Lubricants (oils) are made from standard base-stocks of given viscosity. This applies to both natural mineral oils and synthetic (POA) oils, (not chemicals)  These base stocks are then blended to get to the required viscosity.  Normally a thinner oil is added to a thicker oil to get a lower viscosity than the thicker oil.

All oils have a range of molecules and the lesser/greater sizes are referred to as light ends or heavy ends. To 'evaporate' an oil would require temps well in excess of normal temps (even tropical areas). However some evaporation can occur with the very light ends and the heavy ends will tend to oxidise more, particularly at higher ambient temps.  Both these effects will tend to thicken the oil.  The more blended an oil the greater the effect would be, but still miniscule in the realm of things.  This is why the sticky residues are found in bearings etc in old watches and non-serviced watches.

Synthetic oils (PAO and not 'chemicals') have much better control of the molecule size and therefore have much fewer light and heavy ends.  They therefore tend to degrade less noticeably (ie oil thickening).

Some oils (both types) have 'addtives' incorporated to control other factors (extreme pressure EP, ant-iwear, metal pacification etc). These additives will do their job whether the oil is active or not and some will be 'consumed' doing that job, so a further age related degradation occurs.

If the oil has stayed in place, then it will probably still lubricate ok. If it has spread, then the part it should be lubricating will be starved of oil and will therefore wear more rapidly.

Obviously the comments above re servicing make sense if the watch is to be worn regularly again

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Synthetic car engine oil has a 'shelf life' of 5 years. I assume watch oil is similar i.e. it degrades over time even without use.

up until recently oils and I'm going to pick on moebius because they have a nicer website is more technical literature did not have anything resembling an expiring date. If you look at older bottles you will find that there's no date at all. So conceivably to buy a partially use bottle off of eBay that's been sitting around for 50 years because there's no date. then at some point in time that changed they now have dates on the bottle. Of course watch companies also have recommendations for when the bottle is opened how long you should use it before you toss the thing. Some of that has to do with contamination of getting the oil out of the bottle. which is why some watch companies that supply lubrication to the watchmakers used syringes to avoid the contamination issue.

so for instance if you look at the website below if we pick 9010 almost everyone's favorite not mine as I preferred 9020 but let's look at what it says in the tech sheet. then look at the tech sheets you find that there are two separate time intervals six years shelflife and that on the very bottom of the page one year from the time it's opened. Then let's look at something popular 8000 as a comparison a popular oil probably for cost reasons. On the bottom of the page it has a similar note of open the bottle it's good for one year. but because it's a natural oil it now has a shelf life of two years much much shorter than the synthetic.

Oh then we get more fun things here Omega they recommend when you open up a bottle of oil that you should write it dates on it and you can keep your bottle for six years which is as we know the shelf life of a synthetic oil. So now live a conflict between the lubrication company would like us to purchase a brand-new bottle every year versus omega and they're both part of Swatch group.

then you run into the other issue of how long does that fresh bottle or six-year-old bottle of oil last in the watch. For that I have a link to a video below it is a Q&A with Sellita at 18 minutes and three seconds someone asks an interesting question of basically how long does a watch last if it's run daily. The question is really changed to how often should you service the watch and then what is the life of the watch. You'll notice it's five years but there's a hinting as long as 10 years.

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Question then is what the state of those oils is. That is, will they last and do their job just the same had the movement been recently serviced!?

the real question of what I would be concerned about is what about the keyless works. Can't test out on the timing machine and there's a lot of metal on metal. As long as the rest of the watches made decently polished pivots jewels probably not  a big of problem of lubrication as opposed to metal on metal.

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is the tg readings i got after the beat error was almost removed. 

just a reminder for the future looking at a watch with the dial positions will always look nicer then like a crown position. So what have been nice to see a crown down position. Then for the real test wait 24 hours look at it again in both positions.

 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

 

tinf_9010_en_1.pdf tinf_8000_en_0.pdf

[VWatchie]

On 4/17/2023 at 12:37 AM, JohnR725 said:

For that I have a link to a video below it is a Q&A with Sellita at 18 minutes and three seconds someone asks an interesting question of basically how long does a watch last if it's run daily.

@JohnR725 Did you forget about that link, or is it somehow me?  If it isn't inconvenient for you, can you please provide the link? Thanks! 

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Did you forget about that link, or is it somehow me?

perhaps this was a test to see if anyone was paying attention?  although that is what really happened here it just got dropped off in the editing

 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

perhaps this was a test to see if anyone was paying attention?

That's what I tell my students when I make mistakes while lecturing in programming. "Just making sure you haven't all fallen asleep" 

Thanks John!